EP106: The Impact of the Human Voice

If we train our salespeople to use data and devise probing questions that sort out which prospects are worth their time, is our main instruction to reps, “Go for the disqualification jugular vein!”? How’s that working for you? Santosh Sharan, president, and COO of Apollo.io joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank, in part three of their three-part conversation about the roles of technology and data in cold calling, and the necessity of training the human voice to do more than disqualify prospects. Santosh explains, “Sales reps depend on technology so much that they don’t take time to do research and take a look at conversations strategically.” Chris and Corey both concur: To be a good talker and listener in a sales setting, training is essential, and the goal of that training should be gaining the buyer’s trust through the use of a great script and “The Impact of the Human Voice,” which is the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode.

Listen to the previous segments of this interview:

EP105: Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination

EP104: The Increasing Atomic Weight of Data

About Our Guest

Santosh Sharan, president and COO at Apollo.io, a leading data intelligence and sales engagement platform. Previously, Santosh was COO at LeadGenius, COO at Aberdeen, and VP at ZoomInfo.

Here is the complete transcript to this episode:

Corey Frank (01:21):

Well, that's critical. Again, as you know, not denigrating my profession, I'm in my profession, so I know. And is that you can't just take this plutonium 235 and drop it off at the office of the sales manager, and then just say, "Hey, you're good," without any guiding principles and data about operating procedures. And I think that's where Chris to your point was on the tech stack. The MarTech stack particularly is there's so many different increments that we can chase endlessly, but I think it really comes down to the companies that have the deep philosophy, right? You're not a carpet bagger. This is your industry. I don't think you're going to medical school or law school anymore. You are in the data industry. You are in the success industry, right? You are an entrepreneur that continues to see the world differently when it comes to empowering, giving companies like mine the rocket field, companies like Chris' the rocket field.

Corey Frank (02:22):

And so I want to know that about Apollo as if my folks are aligned that way, philosophically, that I'm buying into a product like Apollo that sees the world that I do, or that challenges me versus simply as a one-dimensional MarTech, that's going to charge me another seat license. And it may not last renewal period because, hey, my guys didn't use it or they didn't use it well. And you realize your account managers, your success managers that you have been spending an awful lot of time trying to reengage with the clients after they've sold them about, "Hey, did you know about this feature? Hey, did you know about this feature?"

Corey Frank (02:59):

And there's got to be some correlation where how many success managers you have versus your renewal rates. And I'm sure for a lot of companies it's a diagram, you should have maybe positioned it or sold it the right way at the beginning. And finding out a little bit about the culture of the organization, which is tough for salespeople to do, because, hey, we want to hit that number, but Chris, what are your thoughts on that?

Chris Beall (03:24):

Well, you know me, my crystal ball is actually here because I drove the excursion down to Arizona. So I have the room in that massive 9,000-pound beast for a crystal ball finally. No trunk, it's mostly crystal ball. I actually think what Santosh just described is coming to pass. We've seen it in what Henry at RealSource is doing, that he does have a system that analyzes that highly vertical data in commercial real estate world around medical office buildings.

Corey Frank (03:54):

Very small market, very tight market.

Chris Beall (03:56):

Very tight, right? Everybody in it is named. He has a thesis which is to talk to them well before they're thinking of selling, so that he can frame that opportunity for them. He has the Ironman suit, which allows him to basically it is an autopilot. It says the next best thing to do is this. There's another weird piece, which is most people are too busy to talk to you right now. So if you need to intersect that with conversations, you need a way of getting the conversations within the bounds of other people's what they're doing, right? Somebody called me while we're doing this podcast, the person who called me happens to be my regular insurance agent for a kind of insurance you have to buy now in the state of Washington or they tax you for some reason I can't understand.

Chris Beall (04:43):

So did he get through to me? No. That phone's sitting down there on the floor buzzing at me because I'm busy right now. So how hard is it for him to get ahold of me when I'm available? That's pretty hard. Like he's only got so many attempts to try. I only have how much time, I'm not busy, and that's true for everybody. Think of the autopilot this way. So Tesla autopilot works really, really well on the freeway. It's just fabulous. In fact, it saves lives. I have a friend whose life was actually believed was saved by the autopilot. It saw the car next to him in a rainstorm coming over into his lane and it saw that the lane next to it was open and it changed lanes into it. An emergency maneuver of a sort done smoothly entirely by automation, which no human being could do because he failed to have eyes grow out of the side of his head when he was an embryo.

Chris Beall (05:36):

You try, right? You can't get those things to pop out the side of your head at least not in the world we live in. But there's a real question when you're going down the road, which is okay, autopilot isn't much for surface streets and probably shouldn't be. And at some point, automated driving gives way to complexity and it's time to put the wheel firmly in your hands while you do the things that are required to navigate the parking lot that nobody is mapped or whatever, right? But the question really is what if your off-ramps were opened or closed at about a 5% open rate and it was scintillating? Some of this one's open now, this one's open now, whichever one's going to come up, you don't know. You got to have somebody get you on an off-ramp so you can go to Starbucks, right?

Chris Beall (06:24):

You can't just drive down the freeway forever, you're trying to do a little bit more. By the way, I was at a Starbucks the other day driving down from Washington state. And there were 10 Teslas lined up there charging, which told me that Tesla's figured out how to get you to go to Starbucks and charge your car, which means they're working with Starbucks. That's the kind of brilliance we're going to see in the future where the opportunity to interact is also optimized because the sales reps time is the constrained resource. So which offer ramp is open right now, the autopilot needs to tell me that and then I need to get going once I'm out there doing the peculiar things that only I as a driver can do. I love that analogy. I do think that's where the world is going. It accentuates the interpersonal skills. It moves out the data skills interestingly enough.

Chris Beall (07:19):

Your average sales rep, as we've talked about in the show is a... I don't mean average, I mean great, is a dyslexic talker listener that is not consistent with looking at data because the data doesn't sit still or paying attention to things that require deep focus in order understand them.

Chris Beall (07:39):

So somebody else has to do that kind of work. AI can do marvelous amounts of it than people who are using judgment can tune it up. The rep's job really should be, what's the next thing for me to do to move a relationship along in the direction of a potential helping relationship commercially for somebody. I think that's what's going to happen. And the talker listeners they're going to do their thing. Again, I don't like football analogies, but I'll go to it. It's very rare that the player who's capable of running that tight route or blocking sufficiently to keep that left tackle, who can keep your quarterback from getting killed, that that person also should be the head coach that same day, designing the place. They're kind of different things and you need both and making them mesh together in a way that wins in that zero-sum game that we call sales is the future and will always be the future.

Santosh Sharan (08:38):

Yeah. As you would talking, Chris, I realized here's another crystal ball or prophecy. If you look at the evolution of computing, right. There was a time when universities and government could buy one computer, that's it. It would cost like 10 million, right? And right now I look around I'm surrounded by like 10 small or large computers right now. Right? And that evolution took 40 years. Now, that evolution where data is accessible to all hasn't happened yet, to a certain... And this is an area where Apollo is really driving to democratize data. The way computing got democratized or information got democratized by Google. B2B data hasn't gotten democratized, I think that could happen pretty soon as well.

Corey Frank (09:27):

Wow. Now, that's fascinating.

Chris Beall (09:29):

Yeah.

Corey Frank (09:29):

So you guys make your living to some degree of selling undemocratized data and your insistence is to democratize it. I love it. I love it.

Corey Frank (10:17):

I wasn't sure Santosh to ask this question publicly on the record or not, but this idea of a social score, right. And where privacy ends and where applicable decent data, workable data is. Right? So for instance, knowing that Chris, the X and Y and the Z, but especially on the Z and then the alpha and the beta, maybe what time he picked up the phone, but where does it end? Maybe which number he picked up the phone on, maybe is there a tonality that works for Chris to persuade him differently? Maybe social tips on Chris is a veto, right? And you talk to him like this, this is what we've seen in the community or the consortium. Do you see any of that or maybe [crosstalk 00:11:01].

Santosh Sharan (11:01):

Yeah, that's very interesting. I have not seen it in the phone world, but it already exists in the internet world. So what they do is for all of us on our internet, all the content we consume, some Google or Facebook or somebody is keeping track of all the content Chris consumes. All the websites he goes to and all the white paper he downloads. Now, what they do with that information is they'll try to anonymize Chris's name and email. They'll just say whatever information, certainly location and exec and the company, because if with IP address, you can tell which company this traffic is coming from. But then marketers are able to rebuild that it's Chris and no one else using other forms of data. Right? So there are ways to at least on the content consumption side, if you can call it a social score, you can tell a lot by the kind of content people are consuming. Right?

Santosh Sharan (11:57):

So what you allude to is very interesting if it can be built for a phone, right? Because everybody's calling the same... I have said two phone numbers, which one am I more likely to respond to? Right. Or what times of the day, if people have tried different times maybe Tuesday morning tends to work better because I have no meetings. Or if somebody could create those scores, we already have social scores on social media. Our behavior in their, so I don't think it would be a big taboo, your question on where the privacy stops? Anything that's on the internet, it's already public. Anything that's not on the internet, but it's related, it's on your business card is still public, right. Now, anything that's not on your business card and it's private, like my social security number, now that is strictly private and that cannot be used as data to enhance the profile.

Santosh Sharan (13:01):

But there is a landmark judgment by Supreme Court. This was like 30, 40 years ago, right around the time internet was being formed. And what they said is your public information, the fact that I work for Apollo is public information. I cannot prevent anyone from selling that information in a different medium and I cannot say that's private to me. Also, if it's work-related, my job title or work phone number, so they're all on my business card. As soon as I give my business card to one person that's like giving it to the whole world.

Corey Frank (13:36):

That's true. That's a great point. Yep.

Santosh Sharan (13:38):

Right. So I can't say no, you can have it, but then no one else should know this information. So that's how you make the distinction between public and private info.

Corey Frank (13:47):

I'm thinking like in terms of even personas, right, Chris, you talk about tonality ConnectAndSell they teach, certainly, I do as well that your voice has the musical instrument, right, has an ability to persuade, to create wanting before convincing based off of pacing. And certain people, it will resonate more than others.

Corey Frank (14:09):

Certain folks will based off your persona, your birth order, your role. I may talk to you in more of a monotone. And when I'm talking about facts and speeds and feeds, I may just do just kind of have a very low, low scale. For others, I may be a little bit more animated and that may be more successful.

Corey Frank (14:30):

Again, this is next-generation kind of gong.io kind of stuff, to be sure. But I'm fascinated with that because it's another uncharted world of, I have the data, I have the number, I have the person I'm going to call, now what is the dossier on how I can romance this person? Right. Talk a lot about Chris Vos and never split the difference in how you build trust and how you can get from fear to trust, to curiosity, commitment, very quickly. And a lot of that has to do with voice.

Santosh Sharan (15:02):

It's interesting what you are saying was the business model for Aberdeen. Is because we had a data business that we bought and we had the content and the business model was, we'll tell you who to contact, but we'll also tell you what to say. Right. And what to say, we were building a lot of content and lot of data. So we could automatically, and we had analyst data with lots of bits and pieces of information, but we could prompt, I guess this could be done better at scale. Clearly what you're saying holds good, right? Selling is a little bit like floating. You need ice breakers or any networking. You need those quick, and you have very little time to capture attention. So this voice box that you talk about, any coaching on what to say, first, it's the how you deliver your message, but also what content you deliver that will attract their attention.

Santosh Sharan (16:00):

If you're talking to a VP market, maybe you talk something strategic, versus if you're talking to a SDR, maybe you talk about something very tactical that will help them get the next, be successful in the very next call. Right. So knowing those differences, and also we live in this world of personalization where we are getting to a point where computers have to tell you this, right? Personalization is the opposite of specialization, right? So we are all trained to specialize in something and be good at it, just by focusing one thing. Right. And yet now we have to personalize to like hundreds of different... And this is where data and computing can help kind of bridge this gap.

Chris Beall (16:42):

Yeah. I'll point out something that happened at the very beginning of this podcast. Corey, you got on and you had a highly personalized opening interaction with Santosh talking about his past at Aberdeen, how you were a customer, as you established a connection. You admired his work. You reminded him of those days and what he could be proud of, by the way, we always talk about how the one emotion that we want to elicit in somebody that we're speaking with and want to have a relationship with is actually pride.

Chris Beall (17:17):

We want them to take their reticence or concern or whatever, and actually substitute for it, pride of either their accomplishments or even something as simple as the place where they live, which people generally choose where they live and they tend to be proud out of it. Right. My opening question on almost every discovery call is a question that very few people ask like this and I ask it for a very specific reason.

Chris Beall (17:44):

I would ask and I might have asked you this Santosh the first time we ever talked is, hey, so by the way, it helps me to have a conversation with somebody just to know kind of where they are. Where are you right now on the surface of our blue whirling planet. And what I'm actually doing is two things. One is, I'm saying we're together. We're both people and we're in this. The image you get is the earth from out and space, somewhere that famous picture, right? With the earth rise over the moon. And here we are, we're together. We're in this together. We're not just together in this meeting, but we're kind of in this together. And secondly, wherever it is you are, you either love it or you don't love it one way or another, you have emotions about it and that's the first thing you're going to speak about. And that totally changes the conversation.

Chris Beall (18:30):

And so it's a kind of, I'll call it universal personalization because it turns out we will all personalize the conversation if we're allowed to speak, as long as we don't have anybody trying to box us in. What we teach sales reps to do often is to try to box somebody in and ask box questions where we put you in a corner and say, "So Corey, if I could show you a way to avoid having several of your children kidnapped tomorrow afternoon around two o'clock, would that be a value to you?" Right? That's the kind of question that we have sales reps ask people. And it's like, I don't want to answer that question?

Chris Beall (19:11):

Whereas if I said, Corey, one of the things that I really admire about you, this just kind of blows me away is how you get so much done, not just professionally, but working with those young students at Grand Canyon University. And yet it's clear to me that because you do special things like you take the kids to places around the world, your children, and you don't have just one or two, you've got a few, you're a generous guy in that regard. How do you do that? That question is the kind of question that leads somewhere. And it leads somewhere for a very good reason because we tend to teach salespeople that the idea is to go for the disqualification or the qualification jugular. You can't do that unless somebody has chosen to, as the wolf does when it's playing with the other wolf to expose its throat, right?

Chris Beall (20:08):

You don't expose your throat until you trust the other party not to tear it out and leave blood all over their fangs. So that's the essence of how we get to this personalization. And often the data will help us. I'm having a meeting tomorrow with somebody who in less than three minutes, actually, I put it on the clock, it was about two minutes and 48 seconds. I discovered I'm meeting with somebody whose father started the company that he now runs in 1982. That's hugely valuable in our conversation. There's no doubt about that. How long did it take me to find that out, a little Google and I'm there. Right. And I also happen to know that his chief revenue officer came from three companies that I know extraordinarily well and had tenures of 1.3, 1.5, and 1.2 years at those three companies, which is interesting to me. I'll keep that in mind, but I won't mention it. Right.

Chris Beall (21:07):

So there are things that somebody could say, because it's not always what you do say, it's often what you don't say. I don't know why those tenures were like, they're about average for sales, but I'm certainly not going to bring that matter up. But I could bring up the higher-level thing, which is this world that you've lived in and I live in a sales tech world. It sure seems to be chaotic at times, doesn't it? And that's a kind of personalization that doesn't require that I know the name of your dog.

Corey Frank (21:35):

Yeah. Well, as my friend Ori Eisen from 41st Parameter in Trusona now. And multiple times Corey, there's two things you need to be successful in business, intelligence.

Corey Frank (21:50):

Right. And clearly the examples that you gave there, Chris, and just the nuance and the approach of those type of nurturing, seemingly harmless questions yielded an abundance of intelligence that you are going to leverage. Not in an unethical way, but in an unethical way to try to build that connection and that trust as you had said. And so I think that what Santosh's company, what Apollo certainly does, right, is enables us powers, sales guys like us CEOs like us in the hands of the right person, that data is absolutely deadly. And in the hands of some amateurs, you put an AR-15 in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what they're doing and that could have disastrous results as well, so.

Chris Beall (22:42):

Think of the challenge that it takes to take that example, which is I go out and I query the company. and I just want to know one thing, which is what does the company say about its own CEO? That's really important actually.

Corey Frank (22:53):

Ah, right.

Chris Beall (22:54):

The tone of what they say about their own CEO told me everything. And it told me that in two sentences that his father started the company in 1982. And that he was the guy who was the head of sales and took the company international. I don't need to know anything else more in order to begin a conversation in which I can now relax and let him talk because that's really what I want to do. And that's kind of the key to sales. I think the key to sales is to catch the person at the right time when they're ready to buy what you want. Eventually, if they're intrinsically qualified, they will be ready to buy what you want. The question is, do they trust you enough to tell you what they really want?

Corey Frank (23:38):

There you go.

Santosh Sharan (23:39):

Do you think the sales reps of today depend on technology so much and do so much. They're not really spending as much time to kind of do this research that you mentioned, right? Or they'd look at these conversations strategically, right? Or they're just like all these tools are bringing them leads and they want to close. They just want pricing in front of the buyer and then move on to the next one. In a way they're living in the day of plenty, and this is not how it used to be several years ago. And that's why you had to do all this hard work and kind research and hone your skills. But now I worry that some of that will go away from this.

Corey Frank (24:24):

Chris calls it that abundance of riches that you have, what's the term the amplify suck because here I have this weapon like ConnectAndSell, Santosh, right? And now I'm able to dial 1000 times a day if I want to, if I click that button enough. And I am powered by Apollo data. But if I'm lazy on my pitch, "Santosh, hi. This is Corey from apollo.io. I was wondering if you had a few minutes to talk." Maybe I don't have a screen placer, right. That's the amplify sucks.

Corey Frank (24:58):

So that's a very dangerous place to be because I think of that mentality of, I got 1000 other leads here, there's a couple of Oompa Loompas in the back room, just pouring unlimited amounts of apollo.io data and I got a bunch of hamsters over here, churning the ConnectAndSell, dialer. And so it's no skin off my nose. Right.

Chris Beall (25:20):

It's really interesting. I mean, the fact is when you don't have abundance, you can't learn how to hold great conversations. And the hardest conversation in sales are the trickiest, not the hardest, but the most different conversation is the ambush conversation. It's the only conversation like it that we tolerate in business.

Chris Beall (25:39):

We actually don't want anybody to ambush anybody in general, but it turns out that to start a relationship off correctly, we have to ambush somebody right, most effectively. Because they're being inundated with so much noisy information, noisy requests coming in from all these inexpensive media that you got to go to an expensive medium. So you can go to a conference and have a conversation with them, that's really expensive. Or you can call them on a telephone and ambush them. And that conversation to be held effectively. Actually, this is what's so interesting is why I call it, you do Corey, finishing school for future CEOs.

Chris Beall (26:20):

That skill of holding a conversation where you didn't get to prep, but you can actually personalize it on the fly, that your techniques, which are ethical, are appropriate to the situation. Where you can allow that person to begin the process of trusting you by how you conduct that conversation. That's kind of the only way not to amplify suck, because at least competitively. Because if you really think about it, you only have two choices. You're only going to talk to somebody or you're not. If you don't talk to them, you are competitively in a world where everybody else is sending them more stuff that is tuned up to tease them. And people resist being teased over time. Those magic subject lines they wear out. The human voice never wears out.

Corey Frank (27:09):

That's a great line. That's great, Chris. I got to write that down. That's so true. We're always looking for the new Jedi Mind Trick on my one word and my email for sincerity and authenticity never goes to out of style, although a touch base status, whatever goofball line is now in Vogue today is tomorrow's Cliché.

Chris Beall (27:34):

Gresham’s law of marketing and sales communication, cheap information, cheap channels, drive out the previous message that worked. So you have something that's been kind of faked up. It's a little bit counterfeit, but it works. And then it gets driven out by all the noise, because it's easy to copy.

Chris Beall (27:53):

So when the cost of copying something drops to zero, the value of copies itself tends towards zero. The Mona Lisa, if I could copy it perfectly so you couldn't tell the difference between the original and my copy. You couldn't tell it even if you took the frame apart, right? Well, it drops in value. If I can make 100,000 copies of the actual Mona Lisa down to the Adams, so to speak, not worth so much. Now, I've got to know provenance which I can't know on conversations. So you've got to have something that doesn't degrade.

Chris Beall (28:26):

And one thing that doesn't degrade is the human midbrain. It's very, very old. It goes back to well before we were humans. Now, anybody who's ever had a dog knows and you know me, Corey, I was a dog guy, right? 16 dogs I had as a kid at one point. The tone of voice you use with a dog determines your relationship with it almost instantly. And a dog and a human last common ancestor we had was a long, long, long time ago. But that part of the brain that interprets the intention from the voice, can I trust you? That goes back a long ways before we were-

Santosh Sharan (29:05):

What you're saying is we have millions of years of evolutionary memory on how we respond to each other's voice, right? And then with our whatever flight or fight response, it's almost involuntary response, right? We don't even realize that we are building trust and credibility. Do you think this can be coached or do you think it's just a natural talent.

Chris Beall (29:31):

It can not be coached, but that's what this shirt's all about, flight school, it is what we coach. So today (unnamed company) subjected themselves voluntarily in their Canadian and their UK operation to their first full session of Flight School, which is two hours long. And the preparation is we take them through a messaging workshop and we teach them the psychological framework to go from fear, not the rep's fear, but the prospect's fear of being ambushed by an invisible stranger to trust in seven seconds. And from trust to curiosity in about 17 seconds and from curiosity to commitment, to take a meeting in about 10 seconds. And we teach it to people and then we coach them like the first two hours we coach only the first seven seconds of the conversation. And they have live conversations one after another, after another, and they get comfortable and then they get used to listening to coaching and they try different things.

Chris Beall (30:33):

And we do this at this level of precision. It's not like, here are the words. The words are not, I know I'm an interruption can I have 27 seconds? It's like this, I know I'm an interruption, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And each of those voices has a name according to the FBI. Each of those voices can be learned, that hard flat throwing myself under the bus. I know I'm an interruption, that tells you I see the world through your eyes. That's tactical empathy, that was developed by the FBI in order to start a hostage negotiation. Not that exact words, but that idea, right. Took a couple seconds. Then the next part is called playful curious, come along with me, I'm going to show you that I'm competent to solve a problem you have right now.

Chris Beall (31:21):

You know what your problem is? I know what it is, me. I am your problem. So I'm going to offer a solution to the problem of which I'm completely in control. I know what you're trying to do. Your goal is to get off this call with your self-image intact. I'm not going to say that, that would be impolite, but I know it's true. So on that foundation, I'm going to offer a solution to the problem. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why called? My voice will go up twice. We teach that, that alone will increase conversation and meeting conversion rates. Just those seven seconds by a factor of four. It's like taking a team of 10 SDRs and turning them into 40 to learn how to do that. So we do teach that. We did it reluctantly, we wanted to do this. We thought we're providing electricity dammit, hook it up and get your lights going and turn some motors, and then we discovered we amplify suck.

Chris Beall (32:13):

And we had to figure out something to do about it. And so out of desperation actually, trying to save a company in Austin, Texas that had been through an unfortunate experience and had $21 million stolen from them by their president. So the owner, I felt bad for him. And I offered him Mondays and Fridays unlimited for $25,000 for a month. And he jumped on it. Well, then we realized, oh my God, we only have Mondays and Fridays. We got to get this team to the highest possible level to save this company, to save these jobs. So we invented this flight school thing and we did it one session, like what's the most important part of the first seven seconds, right? We had the script already. We've now done it 85 times.

Chris Beall (33:00):

Believe it or not that generic pitch when you plug in the persona specific message which has one economic component, one emotional component, one strategic component in plain language, not divulging the actual service that you provide or the solution, that combination is teachable and we can get a rep up in one day from being hired to setting meetings. And in fourth of these sessions, they can be setting meetings at a 95th percentile in the population of all cold calling reps out there.

Chris Beall (33:36):

At that point, they start to feel like they know something about sales and business and you can build on those emotions. So yes, that's a long answer, but the answer is, yes it can be taught and we teach it every day.

Corey Frank (33:50):

Well, Santosh, you're always invited to these type of discussions here. We just like to riff and rant and share data and get in deep. So anything we can help with, just let us know. But thanks for indulging us on this time.

Chris Beall (34:03):

This will be three episodes, I think people are going to be just riveted. I think they're going to be riveted, this is good stuff. So thanks so much for coming on Santosh.

Corey Frank (34:13):

Well, great. Well, Santosh a pleasure, true pleasure. I have a feeling we have a number of guests that always have an open invitation for the virtual seat over there and clearly, with your mind and what Apollo is doing and what they're going to do, we expect to have you back if you're kind enough to indulge us again and again. Both of our businesses, both of our backgrounds, mine and Chris' right, is built on data. The market, the theory of market dominance is the bone structure is in good solid data and great to have a kindred spirit like you in the world and getting the same things that we're trying to get out there into goodness into people like me, sales reps, marketing reps, et cetera. So we appreciate your time and we appreciate you jumping on the Market Dominance Guys. So for Chris Beall, this is Corey Frank with the Market Dominance Guys, until next time