Market Dominance Guys
Sales Training
Episodes
Wednesday Feb 12, 2025
Wednesday Feb 12, 2025
In today's spontaneous episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall ambushes (his words, not mine) an extraordinary cold-calling talent: Josh Bowyer, CEO and co-founder of Zint Technology. What unfolds is a masterclass in the art of cold-calling performance, authenticity, and the delicate dance between manufactured delivery and genuine belief.
Josh shares how he's booked over 100 meetings in just 4.5 weeks using ConnectAndSell, but the real gold is in his insights about perfecting his cold call 'performance' over thousands of iterations while maintaining authentic curiosity. As he puts it, the key is simple: 'Just don't sound like a dick in the first 7 seconds.'
From discussing the impact of AI on sales to exploring the critical balance between scripted performance and genuine belief, this conversation reveals why top performers like Josh can consistently convert cold calls into meetings. Chris and Josh dive deep into how the best cold callers combine theatrical precision with sincere conviction that they offer real value.
The episode wraps up with a fascinating discussion about the future of sales in an AI world, including Josh's recent encounter with what he suspects was an AI bot trying to get his insurance renewal date.
Join Chris and Josh for this unplanned but insight-packed exploration of what makes cold calling work at the highest levels.Links from this episode:
Zint.io
ConnectAndSell
Branch 49
Tuesday Dec 10, 2024
Tuesday Dec 10, 2024
Today they welcome Helen Fanucci, author of "Love Your Team" and CEO/Co-Founder of Pipeline Power, for a candid look at why sales coaching fails - and how to fix it.
The stats are startling: only 0.01% of recorded sales conversations are ever reviewed, and 83% of sales managers have never received formal training. Through their discussion, the trio reveals practical solutions, including Helen's upcoming AI-powered coaching platform allowing sales managers to practice difficult conversations in a safe environment.
From Branch 49's "finishing school for future CEOs" approach to why cultural transformation must precede digital transformation, this conversation challenges conventional wisdom about sales leadership. Whether you're a seasoned CSO or a newly minted sales manager, you'll gain fresh perspectives on building and nurturing high-performing sales teams through systematic coaching.
Link to Free Chatbot tied to Chapter 11 of "Love Your Team."https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67539b3c0c2081918142398d78ac3de9-love-your-team-managing-underperformers
Tuesday Jun 25, 2024
Tuesday Jun 25, 2024
In this brief episode, Market Dominance Guys' Chris Beall introduces some intriguing ideas about the crucial role of mental models in achieving market dominance. He touches on how our biases shape these models, the importance of learning over mere execution, and even hints at a mysterious new product born from an AI collaboration. But this is just the beginning - the full exploration is yet to come. Join us next time when Chris and Corey delve deeper into reshaping mental models, aligning teams, and potentially transforming our approach to market dominance. After this glimpse, you won't want to miss the wealth of insights coming your way.
Tuesday May 21, 2024
Tuesday May 21, 2024
You know what they say about humor in sales? It's like playing with fire. You might warm up the room or burn the whole deal down. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Richard Rabins, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank get into the weeds about using humor across different cultures.
Can you just translate your best one-liners and expect them to land in Japan or Germany? Think again. Richard has some stories about navigating the global sales landscape and is not afraid to admit where he's crashed and burned. But he also has some serious wisdom about how to build trust with prospects, no matter where they're from.
Tune in to hear about the importance of noticing the little things, playing the long game, and always, always doing your homework. If you're in B2B or SaaS sales, this episode is no joke - you'll come away with some practical tips and insights that just might help you dominate your market. So what are you waiting for? Let's get into this episode, “Laughter Lost in Translation - Navigating Humor in Global Sales.”
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
The full series with Richard Rabins here.
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
[00:43:33] Corey Frank: Well, you had said many, many times that outbound is about playing the [00:43:40] long game. To be good at outbound, it's about the long game. And I think part and parcel of that, Richard, is what you're talking about is, if I'm going to be immersed in this craft, in this profession, I've got to be an expert noticer of the residue.
[00:43:58] Corey Frank: We always talk about the false [00:44:00] negatives that happen. And the sales that I didn't get. Not necessarily the sales I did get. What are the nuances of why I didn't get that sale? All of us, if we had a DeLorean, especially if you're in our profession. We would immediately make hundreds of stops at all the sales calls [00:44:20] we blew early in our career to right the wrongs, to tweak the pitch that we know now, and Chris, especially you and Richard, that you guys do so effortlessly, I think.
[00:44:33] Corey Frank: And that concept of playing the long game , where your [00:44:40] confidence is. is accelerated by knowing that there's nobody that's going to take the hook and take me out of my profession if I don't want to. I know I'm going to be in chemistry, , the gal, the situation that you had mentioned, Richard.
[00:44:57] Corey Frank: So whether it's Caltech or [00:45:00] MIT or Scottsdale Community College. I'm going to play the long game and I'm going to do an end around or a flanking. It doesn't have to be a full frontal fast track to the top.
[00:45:11] Richard Rabins: Yeah. Another thing that Chris said is, it's kind of off topic, but you can't tell somebody that you're smart [00:45:20] and on their side.
[00:45:22] Richard Rabins: That's not credible. And you've got to earn it through your actions. And what I've found in life. The minute somebody's telling me about something and they use the word, trust me, that's the last person you should trust. Anybody who has to [00:45:40] enunciate that, it's, it's, it's something you've got to earn.
[00:45:46] Richard Rabins: You can't tell somebody to trust you. And I speak from experience. I've been, I'm basically, I like people and I like to assume that people are good and [00:46:00] most people are, but not everybody. And just so I think with a lot of prospects for good reason initially, or there's the barrier and it's a defensive barrier.
[00:46:14] Richard Rabins: And it's totally legitimate on their part. The, the art [00:46:20] of penetrating that barrier, it's not trivial. And the other thing humorous grade and whatever, whatever you're selling, you've got to do your homework, you've got to know what you're talking about, because you've got to assume that most people are pretty smart.[00:46:40]
[00:46:40] Richard Rabins: I mean, I found that from the days when I, we did market research in my first company and we were sending consumer products typically to young girls like shampoo. But the minute one of the consumer product companies try to pull a fast one [00:47:00] and start making claims that were not accurate or, or the advertising, didn't treat people with a sense of intelligence.
[00:47:12] Richard Rabins: People are actually smart and people are instinctive. They pick up on BS and, [00:47:20] I mean, that's got nothing to do with humor. That's just a general observation, but I guess the lesson is you don't want to game the system. You've got to do the homework. You've got to, you've got to know about your product, especially if it's a somewhat technical product.
[00:47:35] Richard Rabins: If you can't answer some core questions, it's [00:47:40] you're not respectful of the other person's time because they're not, you're not able to impart any useful information. And, and so each, if you expect somebody to talk to you again, if they got nothing out of the first call, why on earth would they want to talk to you [00:48:00] again?
[00:48:00] Chris Beall: We just had one of those actually, Helen and I took a meeting. I took a meeting from a cold call on a topic that would have been of interest to both of us, given her business, Pipeline Power and the one that I run, ConnectAndSell. And so we sat next to each other kind of like this. Richard and I are going to [00:48:20] limit how far that goes, but, and and we, we were on with this very, very pleasant young guy who had been a seller for another company that I know.
[00:48:31] Chris Beall: And now, he's selling for this particular company, telling us some stuff. He knew the answer to exactly zero of the questions that we [00:48:40] asked. He was very pleasant. He was personable. And he said, he'd go find out, but after the fourth, I'll go find out. It's I don't even want to hear from his boss.
[00:48:48] Chris Beall: Because what it's like, why did you put somebody in the front lines who literally doesn't know anything except the simplest script about what it is that your product supposedly [00:49:00] does a little less than I could have read on the website in 11 seconds. You have it's it's a delicate dance. I mean, getting trust.
[00:49:09] Chris Beall: This whole podcast is about one thing. I'll just remind everybody, gentle listeners, well, those of you who aren't so gentle, you can go over there. [00:49:20] Gentle listeners, I'll remind you, Market Dominance, this podcast is about two things. One, paving your market with trust. Two, harvesting that trust over the 12 quarters that it's going to take.
[00:49:37] Chris Beall: For everybody in that market to make a [00:49:40] decision about replacing what they do now that you could help them with, with what you could help them with. That is the replacement cycle for everything in B2B is about three years. Some things longer, if you're selling commercial real estate, or you're buying office buildings medical office buildings like, Henry does.[00:50:00]
[00:50:00] Chris Beall: Anybody who wants to catch those episodes, those are good ones. Then you might have five years, six years, seven years, but it doesn't get much better than three years. You've got to play the long game, not because of some moral reason, it's because it's the only game. In the perfect scenario, only one twelfth of your [00:50:20] market is in the market this quarter.
[00:50:21] Chris Beall: In the perfect scenario. That's with no false negatives. That's with no blown chances. That's the perfect scenario. So what are you going to do in the other 11 quarters? Well, you better do something this quarter, which is get somebody to trust you. And then [00:50:40] as Chris Voss said, when I asked him, how long will they trust you?
[00:50:43] Chris Beall: He said forever until you blow it. So don't blow it. It's actually, this is pretty simple stuff. So the humor part of it is. It's somewhere between a technique and bedrock. [00:51:00] That is, if you're confident enough because you're studied up enough, and you're honest enough to tell somebody what's wrong with your product, which is actually the key to being seen as an expert, is to tell them what circumstance it won't work for them, honestly.
[00:51:15] Chris Beall: Experts do that. Charlatans don't. You might notice [00:51:20] charlatans very rarely tell you what's gonna go bad okay, if you're studied up enough to do that, and you're humble enough to recognize that you don't know all the things even about the application of your own product, you can afford to be funny when it makes sense to be funny.
[00:51:38] Chris Beall: And I [00:51:40] know that's what? I'm going to study to be funny by learning my product deeply and then getting the confidence to actually be an expert who even tells people what might not go great? Yes, that's the groundwork of being able to use humor. If you use humor from a surface perspective, as a trick, [00:52:00] as a magic trick, you will be strung up by serious people in your audience.
[00:52:07] Chris Beall: They're the ones they really care about. They aren't going to go with it. And so it's, it's a delicate thing. I was at General Electric once, when I was called by a very senior person there, who just called me out of the blue and said, it was [00:52:20] Friday. Said, Chris, I'm so and so from General Electric Company.
[00:52:25] Chris Beall: We've heard about your product. It was an electronic catalog for parts, like engineering parts. Heard about your product. We want to see it. Please come here Monday and present to us at 11 o'clock. This was at their headquarters [00:52:40] in Connecticut. And send somebody who can speak for your company. That's a pretty interesting thing to hear, right?
[00:52:47] Chris Beall: We're a very young company, we don't have a lot of cash, we have something we've just built, how did this guy hear about it? A dumb thing to do would be to say, how did you hear about our product? Smart thing to do, it turned out, was say, yeah, [00:53:00] I'll be there, right? So now the question is, well, how does a meeting go?
[00:53:04] Chris Beall: And would you dare be funny in a meeting like that? So I walk into the meeting, got my VP of sales with me, I've got my, my boss with me. And they go around the table, and these people are deadly serious. It's boom, boom, [00:53:20] boom. This is the General Electric Company, right? Mouse traps are snappin mice are dyin it's a, it's a thing that's going on, right?
[00:53:28] Chris Beall: And I play right along with a very quick introduction, and then get up to do the presentation on the product. Now, what would have been [00:53:40] normal? What would they have expected that's not funny? That's a PowerPoint presentation. So I stood up and I said, Well, I have to confess something that I think is rather sad, and I'm hoping you'll forgive me.
[00:53:53] Chris Beall: Now, they're not expecting that, and I said, I'm so incompetent at PowerPoint that it made no [00:54:00] sense for me to come to you with a slide presentation at all, but I did take one of your division's products, all the parts that I could find, which is about 137, 222 of them, and put them into our parts catalog so we could have a look.
[00:54:17] Chris Beall: Are you interested in seeing that instead of PowerPoint? [00:54:20] Now, that is unexpected, and some of them were uncomfortable, and some of them, but a couple of them it was a little laugh, right? And then we did it. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, went through it. It was a 55 minute presentation. It was done in 37 minutes.
[00:54:36] Chris Beall: And I said, well, I have to apologize to you. I don't have any more material. [00:54:40] That's it.
[00:54:42] Corey Frank: And
[00:54:42] Chris Beall: then they were like, and we did a deal on the spot, literally did a deal on the spot. It went like this. It was like, okay, which one of your divisions wants to actually take this pilot? Boom. It's you. Do it. You talk to you.
[00:54:57] Chris Beall: We're done. Oh, look, we saved 9 minutes. [00:55:00] Meeting's over. They're out. Was it humor for the sake of humor? Or was it a trick? No, I was really confident that I'd change the entire world of finding parts. By the way, every time you find one of these parts, it's worth 50, 000 to the company that finds it, just for finding it, not making a new part number.
[00:55:19] Chris Beall: So I knew what [00:55:20] the value was. But then later, another funny situation, years, two years later, the Corporate Counsel of the General Electric Company calls me and says, Get out here! I'm in Colorado, they're still in Connecticut. We gotta talk. Now, I wasn't going to say, Gary, what are we going to talk about? I could tell by his tone of voice, we're going to talk about something [00:55:40] serious.
[00:55:41] Chris Beall: Hello again, jump in a plane. I go on the inside of the plane, so I don't really jump on the outside. It's uncomfortably cold at altitude, and, and, and, and, and, and Windy, Richard pointed out, I take you up to 7, 000 feet inside the plane, more than if you're 39, 000 like I was yesterday.
[00:55:57] Chris Beall: So go out there. Now, they're, [00:56:00] it's the conference room of the General Electric Company. It's the one right under Jack Welch's office. It's huge. It's imposing. for listening. The table itself made me a little bit uncomfortable. I sat there by myself for 45 minutes. Why? Because they teach that kind of stuff, right?
[00:56:16] Chris Beall: Cool your heels. Fortunately, I can entertain myself in my mind [00:56:20] easily because I do have a condition that needs to be treated. Guy walks in, sits down, starts literally pounding the table. Boom! Boom! Boom! I'm thinking, this table sounds great. I wonder where I can get a table like this. This is really, this is probably worth more than my house.
[00:56:38] Chris Beall: Boom! You [00:56:40] are destroying the General Electric Company. And I said, Well, Gary, certainly there has to be some amount of, and the General Electric Company is worth a lot, right? He just looks at me, billions. There has to be some amount of money you would like to pay me so I would stop [00:57:00] destroying the General Electric Company.
[00:57:02] Chris Beall: And he just sits there for a moment, and finally he cracks up laughing, and it's Okay, now we can have a real conversation. Now we're peers. Yeah. So that kind of, I don't know how you teach that, but sometimes just knowing, and the purpose isn't to do this and [00:57:20] you'll win deals. I think
[00:57:22] Corey Frank: it's those little, you've iterated those benign violations.
[00:57:29] Corey Frank: that in this case provokes laughter because it was wrong, right? It could be, it clearly, it would have been unsettling, it was borderline threatening, [00:57:40] right? But it's also acceptable. I mean, it, this is like tickling or teasing or that, that little mix up or that, that, that funny thing that happens after a joke, right?
[00:57:53] Corey Frank: But it's also a thin line, right? Cause I think it's, we all agree that it's easier to, right? to fail with honor than succeed, [00:58:00] right? And it's a delicate operation, which you described, both of you, where it's built on layers of shared knowledge and, and a lot of innuendo. And but you know your crowd, you know your audience, but if you do that, that benign violation, I [00:58:20] think, think, thing works.
[00:58:22] Corey Frank: There is a, there's a quote I'm trying to dig up here, and I think this is it, it's from an anthropologist, Edward Hall, who I think came up in one of our episodes a while ago, because he was quoted a lot in Sapiens, and he says, I'm quoting from Edward Hall, the [00:58:40] anthropologist, If you can learn the humor of a people, and really control it.
[00:58:46] Corey Frank: You know that you are also in control of nearly everything else. And we talked about this yesterday when we talked about cultural differences of selling to the [00:59:00] Japanese. Richard, you've tried, you've sold all the real differences in South Africa, certainly the differences in Europe or, or etc. And but I think what, what Edward Hall was saying is that and even the example you gave of of of the, the English coming in and negotiating [00:59:20] with Gandhi and Nehru, et cetera Richard, is that if I know that this is acceptable in a culture to laugh, poke fun, be nuanced, innuendo about, then I almost have this little unlock code, this cheat code that I'm in the know and that it's [00:59:40] okay to, to, to, to laugh at.
[00:59:43] Corey Frank: So let's end with, with your final thoughts on that.
[00:59:49] Richard Rabins: Well I think it's interesting, the cultural stuff is fascinating. And I think there's two [01:00:00] opposing themes. One is, I think there's some core human behavior that just has to belong to all eight billion people. But, I was mentioning last night that, in the English language, [01:00:20] the concept of somebody being responsible for something and potentially being at fault for something is well established.
[01:00:29] Richard Rabins: So if there's a vase on the table, you knock over, you are at fault and you say to your host, [01:00:40] terribly sorry, I did this. Can I replace it? Or something like that. But you are at fault. In, in the Japanese language, the concept of being at fault like that doesn't exist. What they would say is the vase fell over.
[01:00:56] Richard Rabins: without any assignment of who was responsible for the [01:01:00] bars falling over. And I think that probably translates into stuff that people find funny. So I guess the point is, if you are going to use humor in a different culture, say and I'd say largely, US, UK, Australia, It's, it's more similar [01:01:20] than, than different that's fine, but if if you're going to use it, say in Japan or some other place, you really have to do your homework because as you said, there's some level of risk in, if you use humor, not using humor as a straight path, it's a low risk path, [01:01:40] using humor is somewhat riskier, but also often necessary if you're trying to penetrate it's if, if you're facing a immovable brick wall, and everything else isn't working, humor, but, but you've got to, you've got to do your [01:02:00] homework.
[01:02:00] Richard Rabins: Okay. and understand that it may not always work.
[01:02:05] Chris Beall: Yeah. I got a rule for you. If you're traveling, I used to do a lot of business in other places, right? India, China, Japan, Europe, all over the place. When you're in a, in another culture and every company you go [01:02:20] into is actually another culture and you're going to make fun of something, make sure you're making fun of yourself.
[01:02:28] Chris Beall: Don't presume that it's safe to make fun of anything or any person. other than yourself.
[01:02:36] Corey Frank: Yeah. Other than myself or yourself. Because everywhere I go, I seem to have a [01:02:40] good traction when I make fun of you or you're talking to myself.
[01:02:44] Chris Beall: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is what it means to be a sidekick. I am your sidekick.
[01:02:48] Chris Beall: You can make fun of me. That's why the kick part is in there. Otherwise I
[01:02:53] Corey Frank: thought I was the foil. I thought that's the role that I play. So
[01:02:58] Chris Beall: since we're confused about [01:03:00] our roles. I really don't know how we're going to get through this, but we hope for forgiveness from the audience and from Richard, who has to show up and have a laugh with us.
[01:03:10] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, Richard, final thoughts on your inaugural appearance on the Market Dominance, guys, man, the wisdom. [01:03:20] The tips and it's,
[01:03:23] Richard Rabins: I've had a lot of fun just listening to this and, I think if you respect people, you like people, and you wanna engage with people, you're gonna, you're gonna [01:03:40] learn something, always gonna learn something.
[01:03:42] Richard Rabins: And I, I, I certainly didn't come up with this, but whoever came up with that's why human beings were given. Two ears and one mouth and that's kind of the, probably the ratio of stuff you really got to listen to and, and everybody's [01:04:00] interesting, everybody's got a story.
[01:04:01] Richard Rabins: I, I love, like when I go to a restaurant and one thing that's interesting, the waiter will come up to you and ask you how you're doing, et cetera. Invariably I'll say, I'm doing fine. Thank you. How are you doing? And it's surprising how many people are taken back [01:04:20] by that because it's not that common.
[01:04:22] Richard Rabins: And it's like you, you actually asked me how I'm doing. I'm serving you. It's yeah, how are you doing? I wanna know how you're doing. And I've had wonderful conversations with them. Waiters in restaurants and stuff like that. And, [01:04:40] everything's just a learning experience. But it does come, I really like your comment about noticing.
[01:04:47] Richard Rabins: It's, it's little details, can make huge differences.
[01:04:57] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, that's, that's just great. Well, I tell you [01:05:00] what Chris, we, we could have got to get Stephen right on next, I think maybe Conan and Brian, because I really think that It is a secret weapon. As we were talking, the three of us were talking offline yesterday and today, and I think there's something to deconstruct that and putting folks folks through the [01:05:20] crucible in a safe environment about how to test it.
[01:05:24] Corey Frank: And much like you gave, James Thornburg does it over and over again, till his timing is just impeccable. That's something I think we should look forward to in future Market Dominance podcasts is this how to leverage humor for for success. [01:05:40] Final thoughts to you, Chris.
[01:05:44] Chris Beall: Well, I just happen to know something about Richard, and he's not gonna confess it, so I'm just gonna say it, which is, he keeps saying he loves he likes people.
[01:05:52] Chris Beall: Trust me, he likes dogs better.
[01:05:55] Richard Rabins: It's true. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll end on, on one thing [01:06:00] is often you say to somebody what, what your end ultimate dream, what do you want to do? And if I could open up a dog shelter, I'd be in in heaven, totally. Really? Yeah. Oh,
[01:06:15] Corey Frank: That's awesome. That's great.
[01:06:17] Corey Frank: That's great. I will look for that. [01:06:20] If you need any volunteers, I think I could be persuaded to do that as well. Well as long as we're in the subject of sharing, my, my, my future endeavor is to be a short order cook at a truck stop, because I like doing things like that. Chris you're, you're next.
[01:06:38] Corey Frank: What's the what's the, [01:06:40] what's the, what's the dream gig? Dog shelter, short order cook, and
[01:06:45] Chris Beall: Oh, the dream gig is being a pied piper of barefoot running in Quail Creek, Arizona. If I can pull that off, I'm in heaven. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.
[01:06:56] Corey Frank: Well, okay. Well, this has been a multi faceted, multi topic Market [01:07:00] Dominance Guys episode.
[01:07:02] Corey Frank: So Richard, thank you for your time and for Chris Beall and the rest of the Market Dominance crew behind the scenes. This is Corey Frank. Until next time.
[01:07:11] Richard Rabins: Thanks a lot, Corey.
Wednesday May 15, 2024
Wednesday May 15, 2024
In the second part of our conversation with Richard Rabins, CEO and Co-Founder of Alpha Software, we delve into the delicate balance of using humor effectively in sales. Chris Beall shares insights on guiding prospects through emotional transitions, from fear to trust, using the power of laughter and surprise. However, the discussion also explores the risks of pushing humor too far and the importance of knowing when to rein it in. Richard and Corey examine the idea of teaching humor, drawing parallels between sales and the world of comedy and performance. They emphasize the significance of confidence, vulnerability, and the ability to read your audience to avoid alienating prospects. Join us as we navigate the comedic conundrum of harnessing wit without crossing the line, and discover how to strike the perfect balance for building genuine relationships with prospects.
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
[00:25:51] Corey Frank: Sure. I think you're getting into a different level of rapport building, Chris, I think it'd be a good reminder to talk about the [00:26:00] swirling blue orb and the, the reason why that works, because I think that ties in a lot of what Richard is saying here with regards to, building that, that rapport, which in essence is.
[00:26:13] Corey Frank: Moving from fear to trust, is it not?
[00:26:16] Chris Beall: Right, I mean, we're always trying to help somebody along this [00:26:20] this emotional journey to a next emotional state where we can maybe help them see something new that might be of value to them. So it's always just one emotional transition. So fear to trust is one, trust to curiosity is another, curiosity to commitment is another.
[00:26:38] Chris Beall: And emotional [00:26:40] transitions are tricky things. We actually prefer to hold on to our current emotional state, even if we don't like it, because it is a comfort to us To feel as we feel. We really don't want to change anything in our life, much less how we feel. So in sales, we're trying to help somebody [00:27:00] change something in their life.
[00:27:01] Chris Beall: And if we cold call them, that something is, they're afraid of us. And we want to help them change that to being trusting of us, right? And it's actually why the second sentence in the breakthrough script that we teach. The one right after throwing yourself under the bus, which is raising the [00:27:20] tension, and it is surprising, to this little piece of relief, and it has the chuckle in it.
[00:27:24] Chris Beall: By the way, when people laugh, other people laugh. Right? Nobody knows why you're laughing, but you laugh because others are laughing. Laughter is, as they say, contagious in the same way that yawning is, but in a way that sneezing is not. At least, we hope, right? It ain't to sneeze [00:27:40] and have everybody in the room suddenly sneeze.
[00:27:42] Chris Beall: I mean, you might get a pandemic or something like that. But this, this business I know I'm an interruption. I mean, nobody expects to hear that. And, and almost nobody in sales, by the way, is confident enough to throw themselves all the way under the bus and have it [00:28:00] go ba bump, ba bump, ba bump, because buses, by the way, have that many sets of wheels, and then it backs up over you and goes ba bump, ba bump,
[00:28:07] Richard Rabins: ba
[00:28:07] Chris Beall: bump, right?
[00:28:08] Chris Beall: Now you're really under the bus. And then how do you switch your voice sincerely to being playful? A playful and curious voice is what allows somebody to have that relief. [00:28:20] from your initial statement, which is you throwing yourself under the bus, which creates tension. You talk often, Corey, about tension being important in sales.
[00:28:30] Chris Beall: Well, the story that starts out with, I just ambushed you, has got tension built into it, but it has more tension if you amplify it verbally. I know I'm an interruption. [00:28:40] And then you change your voice to PlayfulCuriousCat. Can I at 27 seconds tell you why I called? If you really want to see this in action, hear this in action over and over, just go out to James Thornburg's LinkedIn profile and listen to one James Thornburg video after another.
[00:28:58] Chris Beall: He will often end one [00:29:00] that's really brutal. He has a recent one that has somebody at the very end just going off on him, and he has to bleep most of it out. But right before that, he does his standard, what would you say to that at the end, which is so is it okay if I end this with the joke? What do you call five coal collars at the bottom of the ocean?
[00:29:19] Chris Beall: And [00:29:20] we only ever hear his side. Pause. He says, a good start. And then he goes on, right? Well, he says it, and it's really funny, because James Thornburg has great comedic timing. And he's very, very dry. He's the Stephen Wright of sales, of cold calling, right? He is a funny guy who can talk to you also about [00:29:40] slaughtering pigs, and make that seem somewhat amusing, even though that's a serious business.
[00:29:44] Chris Beall: So he raises pigs. It turns out he doesn't, he doesn't go slaughter other people's pigs. He kind of sticks to his own, right? It says he and his pigs have an agreement. This is how it's going to end. I have an animal example, by the way. This one [00:30:00] back in the first days of COVID, literally the very first days, Helen, who was at Microsoft, was on a happy hour.
[00:30:09] Chris Beall: They used to do this. They called them like team happy hours and everybody was introducing their pets and I was somewhere else in the room where I couldn't be seen, but it's a [00:30:20] happy hour. So alcohol is going to be involved and I'm listening and I'm just wondering where she is going to go when they come to the pet thing because Helen doesn't have any pets and what she says, I didn't anticipate.
[00:30:34] Chris Beall: It was funny to me, but I managed to participate. by Pantomime. Pantomime can be pretty funny, [00:30:40] actually, if you are lucky enough to get a chance. She says, well, everybody's been showing their pets. I actually don't have, well, I actually do have an animal. He's 6 '1 goes 2' 15 and at that point I walk up with a bottle of Blanton's and pour her a shot.
[00:30:57] Chris Beall: She says he fetches. And, [00:31:00] and he pours. That's funny. So he fetches and he pours became a trope joke, actually, and has run ever since then. Covid's now, that part is 3 years behind us, right? And it's still pretty funny. Fetches and pours, and that became a trope joke. kind of how I was known right up until the point where she renamed me as [00:31:20] almost a thing.
[00:31:21] Chris Beall: So now I am almost a thing that fetches and pours, which makes no sense whatsoever, but is also somewhat funny. That kind of thing, it is noticing, right? What was I doing? I was noticing that this situation is evolving and I could have just not done anything, but I [00:31:40] prepped. And why did I do that? What am I selling?
[00:31:42] Chris Beall: I'm selling this. a group of people that she's now not going to go to the office with, Helen, their boss. It is cool. You can hang with her. You can bring your problems to her. You, it's a tiny contribution, [00:32:00] but it had that effect, right? By the way, what can you do to develop humor? I don't know if this works for most people, but some people when they go to stand up classes to learn standup comedy.
[00:32:11] Chris Beall: where you're being workshopped over and over and over and over and over, you're workshopping over and over in order to be able to respond to something. What [00:32:20] you're learning to do is to pay attention to what the other person says within the context and respond in a way that reframes so that the dialogue goes forward and it might get to somewhere funny.
[00:32:32] Chris Beall: And that ability to notice, respond with reframing, and take the conversation in a direction that has a [00:32:40] positive resolution. In their case, standing up is funny, that is a good thing to practice, whether you will learn to be funny by doing it, I can't say, but I can certainly say the greatest cold callers I've ever known are people who are stand up comedians.
[00:32:58] Richard Rabins: Just to add to [00:33:00] that, I had the fortune or misfortune of going to business school. And, so I get the newsletters and magazines from the school. And I noticed that they had profiled a student. [00:33:20] who had gone off and started a company and was doing really innovative, good stuff.
[00:33:26] Richard Rabins: And she was talking about her experience. This was at the Sloan School, the MIT Business School. She was talking about her experience and that the best course she [00:33:40] took was apparently they started a course where the professor, is a joint professor at the business school, but also teaches drama.
[00:33:53] Richard Rabins: She teaches theater drama. And so it's [00:34:00] You know, I mean, humor is, it's part of a performance. It's comedy part is a performance. Getting back to your question, which is a really practical, interesting question is, can you teach humor? I suspect you're not going to turn someone who innately doesn't have a [00:34:20] sense of humor into someone who does, but I think you can certainly, sand the edges significantly.
[00:34:27] Richard Rabins: And it's, it's possible you could actually. Make progress in that area.
[00:34:38] Corey Frank: Yeah, I would, I would think you [00:34:40] can with a lot of noticing practice. Like we talked about the synopsis that are broken. There's something that maybe our listeners can look at. There's a rapper by the name of, of, Harry Mack. And he was just, there's a video that you can see it on YouTube and, and TikTok and [00:35:00] Instagram.
[00:35:01] Corey Frank: And he went into the New York Yankees clubhouse and he asked them for seven random words, a raid. OpeningDay, Sandwich. It's just non sequitur type of, type of words all globbed together. And he proceeded [00:35:20] to put together an M & M 50 cent level quality reduced wrap in real time. And it was incredible to the point where You know, it's not maybe our type, type of music, but the artistry and the [00:35:40] craftsmanship that went into developing the ability to see forward.
[00:35:46] Corey Frank: Right? Writing a sonnet in real time. I have to see, okay, A, B, A, B, A, B, right? The iambic, pentameter, right? I have to see ahead two or three stanzas to make sure this is the right number. And I think [00:36:00] that people who are very good at it. Warren Claff, Chris, certainly you're a master at it. Other public speakers that we know with, with this persona, this confidence, they have this ability to almost have this matrix out of time process to see time in reverse.
[00:36:19] Corey Frank: [00:36:20] And, I, I don't know of any other way to do that, except to put yourself out there, like you were talking about, about a good standup workshop and get your butt kicked. I'm sure. As James Thornburg has documented hundreds, if not thousands, of [00:36:40] calls in his years working with ConnectAndSell and BridgePoint, is that the latter performances are much better than the earlier performances.
[00:36:52] Corey Frank: And I would bet, Richard, that you are going into a presentation today, or Chris, you going into a [00:37:00] present today, you have nothing to lose. And so you're more at ease, and you're apt, more apt to notice things that are different or unusual in the world, than if you're a newer sales rep. You're so focused on your deck, the presentation, the body language of your prospect.
[00:37:18] Corey Frank: What are your What are your [00:37:20] thoughts on, on on that?
[00:37:23] Richard Rabins: I think that's a really interesting point that I keep thinking about, I keep coming back to the fact that you need to understand that the other person is a human being. And, And [00:37:40] anything that breaks the expectation so the expectation is you're going to come in there, give a PowerPoint, very formal.
[00:37:50] Richard Rabins: It's not, it's not like initially a fun experience. It's not unpleasant. It's not a fun experience. But if you can, walk [00:38:00] in. And let's say, depending where you are, you look out the window and you see some mountain, you say, wow I didn't realize you guys were this close. Can you ski or whatever?
[00:38:12] Richard Rabins: You immediately, you, you change the atmosphere of the room. [00:38:20] And so I do think that When you're a young, inexperienced person, you don't think you've got license to behave like a human being. You, you feel like you have to follow in a robotic fashion. And as soon as you can get rid of that sort of [00:38:40] inhibition, and, and just be more confident.
[00:38:42] Richard Rabins: And, and also I think I realize that Even if it's a really important meeting or call, that if it doesn't go well, the world doesn't end. It's not the end of the world. I mean, how many times, Malcolm Gladwell [00:39:00] the author's interesting guy. So, in one of his recent books, he talks about the concept of, you can't take yourself too seriously, that there's a, a young girl.
[00:39:15] Richard Rabins: Somewhere, she's in high school, she's really, really good at chemistry. She loves [00:39:20] chemistry and she's number one in her school in chemistry. And her dream is she wants to go to Caltech or MIT, to go and study chemistry. She applies, she doesn't get in. She thinks the world has just ended. And [00:39:40] but she ends up going to another school, very good school, chemistry, and does brilliantly.
[00:39:45] Richard Rabins: And the reality is all the kids who go to MIT or Caltech, they were always probably number one or number two in their class. maths and physics. They come to MIT and by [00:40:00] definition, 50 percent of them have to be in the bottom half of the class. There's no avoiding it. You can't, so all of a sudden she might've gotten to MIT and there was a 50 percent chance she would be in the bottom half of the class.
[00:40:16] Richard Rabins: That would do a number on her ego and her self [00:40:20] confidence. So what, what William Gladwell describes, she goes to this other school, and she's like the top student in that class, and her career blossoms because it didn't affect her, her self confidence. Firstly, the lesson there is, [00:40:40] you didn't get in, should I literally jump off the next building, or do I say, okay, Plan B, and move on, and On a more serious tone, I think they've improved this at MIT, but MIT used to have the highest suicide rate of any college [00:41:00] for exactly that reason.
[00:41:02] Richard Rabins: You get these 17, 18 year old kids, their whole sense of self is tied up in how brilliant they are. And now all of a sudden there's this wet slap across the face. And in fact, When I was there, there was a building called the Green Building, the [00:41:20] tallest building, and they had to make sure that the top of the building wasn't accessible, because it was a perfect way to jump off the building.
[00:41:31] Chris Beall: Wait a second. MIT engineers are capable of taking a car apart and reassembling it in your dorm room. Certainly they can get to an inaccessible part of [00:41:40] the
[00:41:40] Richard Rabins: building. That's true. Well, they, they still did in fact have. the high suicide. So there was a lot of successful, but you know, it's, it just, yeah, I think the whole thing is, if you're relaxed, I think Chris alluded to, if you're relaxed, the people around you all relax.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Richard Rabins: And that, that's a good thing.
[00:42:03] Chris Beall: You gotta have the goods. I mean, this is one of the, one of the things you gotta have, right? You have to be a very serious, hardworking student of whatever it is that you're an expert in. I mean, in sales, the job is pretty simple. You're an expert who is on their [00:42:20] side.
[00:42:20] Chris Beall: That's it. It's hard to establish yourself as being on their side. Because people are naturally wary of somebody who says they're on their side. You can't just come out and say it. Hi, I'm an expert. I'm on your side. Now let me see if I can find a pen here so you can sign this deal, right? It's a, it [00:42:40] doesn't work like that.
[00:42:41] Chris Beall: You're helping somebody come by themselves to the conclusion that you're an expert and you're on their side. Well, being on their side, you don't have to be funny. It turns out. But you're showing a little bit of vulnerability by your willingness to try to be funny. That is, you're actually going out on a limb.
[00:42:58] Chris Beall: If you say something [00:43:00] that might be funny, you're exposing yourself to the criticism of why are you being funny? That's not a funny thing, right? So you're actually going a little ways toward being on their side by being willing to be funny, but you're also going a long ways to being an expert by having the confidence to be [00:43:20] funny, and those two things go together in a kind of mutually reinforcing sort of way.
[00:43:27] Chris Beall: But once you get that going, you better not go too far with either one.
In our next episode, we wrap up our conversation with Richard Rabins and delve into the fascinating cultural differences in humor and how they can impact sales interactions. Join us as Chris and Corey share their dream retirement gigs and reveal a surprising fact about Richard's true passion that explains why he's such a master at connecting with others.
Wednesday Feb 14, 2024
Wednesday Feb 14, 2024
The guys are back with sales visionary Shane Mahi as we dive into the vital facets of authenticity, ethics, and trust in the world of sales. As sales leaders, you know these elements are crucial for fostering customer loyalty and closing those pivotal deals. Shane elaborates on how transparency and being genuine have led to exponential sales growth for him over the past months. They also investigate AI's emerging impact and why interpersonal skills remain vital, even with advancing technology. This forward-looking discussion offers invaluable wisdom on steering sales teams through a shifting landscape. Whether you aim to amplify results or spearhead AI adoption, you will gain insight from Shane’s real-world perspectives. Join us as we continue unraveling the keys to ethical and successful selling in this next-level episode, "The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity."
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Chris Beall (00:32:56):
So the ethics piece I think actually is simplified down to the bot's, got to tell the truth that it's a bot. It turns out that's also the practical path. Bots that lie are like salespeople that lie. By the way, there is no shortage of the ladder. I mean, we act like, oh my God, the bot's going to be lying about being a bot. The salesperson is going to be lying about being on your side. In B2B sales, I have exactly two jobs. One, I have to be an expert. Two, I have to be on your side. If one, I'm not an expert, but I portray myself as one and two, I pretend to be on your side, but actually over here on the side, I'm kind of dragging my commission in here to make sure that it talks to you before I do. If those two things are happening, which I believe happen in a very high proportion of sales conversations, then I'm exactly what people think. I am a lying salesperson. We have a podcast here that has 210 episodes that say you can dominate markets with the human voice at pace and scale under one and only one condition, which is that you tell the truth. That's actually the condition. And it's very interesting. I mean, we're conceptually hoping to liberate salespeople to tell the truth, but you got to liberate the bot to tell the truth. You built the damn bot. Have it tell the truth.
Shane Mahi (00:34:16):
Well, I think that's the only thing that made us successful. We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that's telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that's where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman.
(00:35:15):
Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, it came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where made all those mistakes, learned everything, service customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I've recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I'm looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety.
(00:36:12):
Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what's happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it's either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They're just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I'm a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I've set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you've maxed out your attempts. You can't use us anymore.
Corey Frank (00:37:13):
You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT.
Shane Mahi (00:37:18):
That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That's the only reason I was able to learn. Well,
Corey Frank (00:37:34):
Sure, sure. And Shane, you're a prolific podcast guest, and again, a purveyor of a lot of thought leadership on LinkedIn. Chris and I we're on the campus of Grand Canyon University here. Shane, and Chris are responsible for what we built and why we've built Branch 49. He coined the phrase that we use here pretty ubiquitously now that this is a finishing school for future CEOs, part of that finishing school that curricula is that you have to have educational programs that not just teach technological aptitude, which is Hey, how to use chat gp, which you just went GTT, which you went through or Salesforce or ConnectAndSell or Cognizant or anything else. But Chris, I think what we've talked about many, many times, Shane, and I think your epitome of this is that you can't just teach technology. You can't just teach technology aptitude. You
have to teach interpersonal abilities that have to foster that trust and have to foster those connections.
(00:38:45):
And if you don't, then you will be threatened by a chat GPT that will very quickly enable you to engender trust faster than probably somebody who's fence posts the emotional AI that you need. The emotional intelligence that we've talked about, right in this profession for a long time, will be key. So I think one of our early episodes, Chris, we talked about, or maybe it was a guest, we talked about how there's an ability to hear a smile, right? We've talked about that from our earliest mentors, right? Studies have shown that our sense of hearing is so incredible. It's so acute that we can identify emotions and conversations even in a Zoom conversation like this. We can respond to the nuances of a head nod of no, of body language if there's disassociation with the topic. So how does ai, I mean, I hear it's coming that this ability for AI to listen to a stammer, to listen to a nuance, to hear a smile, and then maybe respond with a softer question with maybe a couple of verbal disfluencies on a pause versus finishing a response and then hitting with a direct question right out of the gate without any social nuance.
(00:40:14):
So do you guys see any of that or anybody teaching that, any technologies that you're aware of that are moving in that direction?
Shane Mahi (00:40:23):
All of them. I'll jump in real quick on that. So I ran a podcast, actually the second one with James Buckley, John Barrow's, right hand man. And I asked him, who else do you think would be a great guest on the podcast? And he said, you've got to check out these two guys. And one of 'em is Sybil, and there's another one that came with a W. I'll check out the name. But one of those softwares has the ability now, just like you said, Corey, with going like this, your hand gestures, your movements, the ability to tell if somebody's being genuine on a call, it detects eye movement. Did his eyes go like this? Here's your trigger. Here's your cue for this. Did he make a gesture? Did he lean back when you said this question, did he lean into it? Now, sometimes we're on calls and we do have hidden agendas in some you shouldn't, but everybody has some sort of hidden agenda.
(00:41:16):
Well, whatever the case may be, and you don't have any way of knowing that without having your second or third party or let's just say software to help you discover that. And I saw this the other day, right? So I'm sitting up on WhatsApp on social media, and I get a message from somebody and they say, oh, I love what you're doing. I've seen you on this and this and this. Do you want to have a chat? I want to talk to you about a few things. And usually I wouldn't say yes, but I said, all right, fuck it, why not? So I jumped on the call with him and sat on the call with him for three hours. It came to a point where I told him a little bit about my story and I didn't expect anything from anybody, but I just saw the eyes go and right then the call was dead for me. I'm not working with that guy ever again. I told him, don't ever call me again the next day. He just like
Corey Frank (00:42:11):
That.
Shane Mahi (00:42:12):
Just like that because I'm not stupid. I've been through plenty of experienced prisoners. I've been to prison, I've been to rehab, I've been living in the US New Jersey, I've come to the uk, I've been to Morocco, all kinds of countries. I sense body language, you can sense and feel people's energy. And when you see somebody being disingenuous, I've had conversations with Chris for three and a half hours while he's walking around the desert barefoot. So that to me is genuine. But when I'm having a conversation and now we're talking about brand identity and who you are, and now the brand is you, Shane, and then when you ask for my opinion and you are not intrigued or interested and it's just a motive, you are hidden agendas. You just want money out of me because you heard I generated X amount of revenue the previous year May, I'm done with you, and I don't say that to a lot of people. So what do you think about Chris with the ability to recognize authenticity on these calls with any of these AI bots or AI softwares, and how can you trust the AI software to be genuine when it is dictating those outcomes to you?
Chris Beall (00:43:19):
Well, I think there's two things. One is I think it's okay to interact with somebody whose motives are clear. In fact, I think one of the uses of humor in conversations is that you can, in a light way, touch on the issue that you're looking for a deal or whatever it happens to be.
Corey Frank (00:43:40):
Introducing our friend Orin's introduction of tension. You have to introduce tension to create authenticity
Chris Beall (00:43:46):
And there's natural tension, but it doesn't need to be hidden. It doesn't need to be cryptic, but it does need to be on an acceptable path from where somebody is emotionally to where they might be able to interact with you with a clearer mind. And that's actually sort of what the entire this whole market dominance thing is about is you're trying to help somebody go from their current emotional state, which is that they're afraid of you because you ambush them, but say it's a discovery call, they're apprehensive about joining that call. They're pretty sure you're going to try to sell me something, and that makes somebody feel a bit put upon it feels dangerous, right? As the future CEO, you need to learn how to take somebody or help somebody make a transition from their current emotional state to one where you can be more useful to them.
(00:44:46):
And I'll use an analogy, I worked a lot with animals. I grew up around lots and lots of animals, and some of them were very large horses in particular, and you owe that horse after all, the horse is getting a pretty good deal. It's not out there running around in the desert trying to find a little pond to suck up a little water so it doesn't desiccate and croak out there in three days. So it's living in a nice paddock and in a corral, and you're feeding it and you brush it, even just like people walk after their dogs and pick up dog shit. You're a slave to the horse and all of that, but you owe that horse enough moment by moment awareness of its emotions that it can do its job so that you can afford to keep it. Its job includes having a bit in its mouth.
(00:45:38):
That ain't that fun actually, if you think about it, right? Who would want that? Why don't you put a piece of steel in my mouth, attach it to some ropes, so to speak, and then pull on 'em to tell me which way to go. Oh, great deal. Love it. I'm signing up for that right away. That horse wants to sign up for that, but it does kind of like that bale of hay and then horse pellets and a little oats every once in a while and a place to get out of the rain and maybe some horsey friends that it can hang out with and stuff like that. So it's a trade-off, but you owe that animal the emotional journey to help on the emotional journey to where it'll accept the bit. That's what we do as helpful experts in sales. We need to help somebody go on that emotional journey.
(00:46:27):
So bots, if bots are going to be successful, cheap as they are, they also need to be able to help somebody on that emotional journey. Fortunately, that journey has been mapped out for different parts of the sales process in ways that certain kinds of scripting and voice can help somebody. If you refer to it as manipulation, you're actually inferring that the purpose is your purpose against their purpose. If you believe you can be helpful, then you're kind of obliged to do this. I was once a witness to a head-on collision where two guys not wearing seat belts went through the windshield of their vehicle, and I was driving a big truck that was full of cement mix. And so I'm looking down at this accident, very dramatic, right? I owed those people who are now lying there, bleeding from all the glass cuts and all lying on the hood.
(00:47:30):
I owed them if I could do it. And I was trained in this stuff, and some help on the emotional journey from laying there, bleeding and being all hyped up and thinking you should run around, took calming down, calming over, lying down, being treated for shock. While I had some people do some things like call ambulances and stuff like that because I was more expert than the other people around who watched that accident and these people were in need, I owed them if I could do it, the opportunity to go on an emotional journey that let them be treated medically. Because if they were going to run around chickens with their heads cut off and scream at people and jump up and down, it wasn't going to happen. Life is full of this stuff. If you want to be a leader, you are obliged to take on an understanding and skills around helping somebody get to the point where you can help them, and that's really the essence of sales. That's what we do. That's why what they're doing at Branch 49 is so interesting because you go into the conversation pit, so to speak, and you learn how to have conversations that, yeah, it has a set of meeting outcome and everybody applaud and all that, but what you're really learning to do is to help somebody get in a state where you can help them. That's actually what it's all about.
Shane Mahi (00:48:50):
I agree. And just to add a bit of context to that situation, the point of the conversation was supposed to be, let me show you a few of the things that I'm working on on the mega brand. So somebody who was supposed to be part of that, and hey, cool man, let's have a look. Here's a couple of the images. And without being genuine and saying, Hey, I want to show you this because I believe I can expand, or I can grow your brand with the same mechanisms to do this, then I'm game. I'm fine. Again, if we were on this podcast and after the podcast, it came to, Hey, Shane, can you buy this from me? It'd be the same thing if somebody came on my podcast and I was interviewing them because I want to share their journey with my network and have other people become educated on the path to entrepreneurship.
(00:49:41):
And then all of a sudden at the end of it, I said, oh, well, I want you to pay for this too, and I want you to give me this and give me this. And they would be like, Shane is a scumbag. So for me, again, that authenticity piece and the ethics behind just trustworthiness and being honest and transparent and frank, I've closed more sales in the past seven months from not trying to sell anything than I did in the past three years of my entire business career. And again, it was because I learned, I've had conversations very, very, I'm not bragging on nothing, but I've had very high level conversations with important leaders. Chris, like yourself on Chris, I want to fire the team. What should I do? Remember that
Chris Beall (00:50:22):
We had that conversation. That one took about two and a half hours actually, and was right over there on my patio that I was on the desert.
Shane Mahi (00:50:30):
We had that chat and many more. And then my conversations changed from, Hey, do you want to learn about how we can book you more meetings to, Hey, do you want me to tell you how I can increase your valuation and help you get to an exit in three years versus the next 10, right? Those types of conversations changed everything about what I'm doing, and it's because I'm ethical in everything I do and how I approach my market. So that's me on that piece. Just to chime in on that,
Chris Beall (00:51:00):
Corey, I think there's a problem that you're going to face, and the problem is we do need people to learn how to interact with other people starting from where they are. So when you're young, your interactions when you're really young have a lot to do with your parents and a lot to do with power. Anybody who's ever had a 2-year-old knows it has everything to do with power because you're trying to get a little power in the world, and there's ways to do it. Screaming your head off in a public place works pretty well. There's a bunch of others. The word no comes to mind, right? The original tough customer is a 2-year-old. They've got a response to your suggestion, no, you're trying to sell 'em whatever. Why don't you sit in the high chair here at the restaurants that run around the table and kick our feet?
(00:51:46):
No, right? I mean, that's where the resistance to sales actually starts. We need people to learn how to do this, not in order to sell things to other people, but in order to have their own learning, which in certain ways will always exceed any bots. And here's why. By the way, in the world of the innovation economy, all the value is created by bringing things together that weren't together before, and discovering that you can get new value from simple combinations. If you've ever worked with a patent attorney, you'll be told by a good one. Look, you don't come up with something new. You combine two things that exist, and now you have something patentable. That's the world of patents. And as you know, I have a certain book of them and my patent attorney, Sid Leach, up in Phoenix, the best that I've ever worked with, I've been working with them since my 40th birthday, so that means 29 plus years.
(00:52:46):
And that was the first thing he taught me was, you're not coming up with something new, even though it's novel, it's always a combination. It's always a combination. Well, everything can be combined. That's why the innovation economy is so huge, because there's so many combinations. So you asked, what is this AI stuff in sales? Oh, look, a combination AI and sales, two things brought together, but in order to get the combinations to happen, it takes conversations both with other people and inside of our own little noggins as we cro around in the desert barefoot or do whatever crazy things we do, and if we want to share those with somebody else and have them make a dangerous decision, do I want to try something new? Which is the essence of innovation, economy, sales, do I want to try something new? We need to get really, really good at helping somebody get to the point where we can have that conversation.
(00:53:39):
So if we deprive folks of the ability to do the baby conversation, which is the cold call, how are we going to get into the adult conversation? Which is, what do you think? If we were to take that technology, that technology and that company right there and put, I don't know, maybe a hundred million bucks into it, what do you think? Can we do something there? That's a much less comfortable conversation because there's more on the line, but there's always more on the line. So you're going to face a problem, Corey, which is, and it is not going to happen fast, but when cold calling is better done by bots or done as well, but much more cheaply, which is a likely thing to happen at some point, at least for the first call, where does the practice come from for people to become competent business leaders? And it's going to take some thinking and work.
Shane Mahi (00:54:34):
I have a quick question on this, Corey, and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So let's just call the typical outbound service in today's society, roughly. It costs about 10,000 pounds for us to deliver a monthly service, 10,000 pounds, a monthly retainer, let's call it that. Now you've got one or two dedicated reps, you've got a research team on there. You've got quite a heavy opex cost, let's say 50 to 60% of the entire deal value or the monthly deal value goes towards that. When the time comes that a bot has the ability to do that process that those researchers can do, and those first callers can do the, does the outbound, does the outbound arena, the environment still keep their costs the same, the value is still the same, you're still getting the outcome, or does it now become a period of, or a playground where we're going to fight on costs?
Chris Beall (00:55:35):
I know the answer to that question because I didn't study Elizabeth and poetry. I was reading Peter Drucker when I was seven years old. Oh, okay. Lemme throw you the answer. Prices always follow costs downward, always. And the reason is that there asymmetries and situations among providers, and for one provider, even holding quality constant, which is pretty impossible to know if you've done, it always is the case where they could either make more money now on the transaction or in the future off the market by offering the same service at a lower price. Therefore, they will do that, and therefore they will take share from you.
(00:56:20):
That's just the answer. And a question of, in any competitive environment, how does that work out? I mean, again, this is a big deal on this podcast. We often talk about the fact that the world of sales obsesses about competition and also acts like there isn't any competition at the same time, which is truly bizarre when you think about it. So if you want to get a salesperson hyped up, talk about a competitor, oh, there was a competitor in that deal. Oh my God, what are they offering? Where's our battle cards? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, well, what are we offering? Oh, absolutely. We're offering this value and absolutely we're doing this. No, it's all relative, you're offering something that has an unknown and a kind of known quality at one thing that is known, which is the cost, at least the dollar cost, and comes with other costs like, oh, you got to actually implement it.
(00:57:15):
You got to hire people, you gotta train 'em, you got to do whatever. So what happens over time is competition shapes, markets and new material science shapes costs. New material science always shapes cost. As soon as you make rolled steel, you change the cost of automobiles. As soon as you can make a combination of rebar and concrete that you can take up far enough to put some really inexpensive glass on it, you make skyscrapers instead of three story buildings in old downtowns and you reshape the world. Material costs and per unit capability shape the economy's direction because of competition at all times relentlessly and pretending it's not going to happen is frankly idiotic.
Wednesday Feb 07, 2024
Wednesday Feb 07, 2024
Artificial intelligence is transforming sales, whether we're ready or not. In this episode, we dive deep on questions sales leaders have about leveraging AI amidst the hype and uncertainty. What’s driving adoption? Where can bots add value now vs. someday? We debate ethical considerations and the threat of/or replacing human jobs.
Our guides, Chris and Corey, are joined by Shane Mahi, now Chief Partnership Officer at AI startup mega.ai. Shane shares insights from the AI frontlines on what’s realistic today and the autonomous sales agent vision of tomorrow. Shane shares the hard-won insights he's gained through making over 650,000 sales calls and landing more than 30 major clients. In this 3-part series, we'll cover Shane's journey along with the role of AI in sales.
Join us for episode 213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Chris Beall (00:08:41):
Great. So I just finished a book I can recommend to everybody called Molecular Storms. If you want to understand how quantum physics actually derives from or is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics and why we are we are, what we are, where we are, and how it all works. Read that and Stephen Hawking has mentioned it in that book, so go for it.
Corey Frank (00:09:07):
The original Hawking and you are the Hawking of Hawking. Alright, I will add that to my children's book list. Yes, it's recorded, but we have a guest, we have a repeat guest from what, almost three years ago. We have Shane Mahi from Points undetermined Morocco, the UK, Maryland. So Shane, great to have you back on the Market Dominance Guys, after an extended disappearance and as you've built up your companies and built up your rotation and how many hundreds of thousands of phone calls you've had since the two and a half years that you've arrived, ready to share the information, not only on all what you've learned in those two and a half years since you've made the last appearance, but also we're going to talk today, Chris and Shane Wright is about something I know nothing about, which is the I in ai, and we're going to talk specifically about AI in sales and in outbound sales. So Shane, great to have you back on the Market Dominance. Guys.
Shane Mahi (00:10:05):
Thank you very much Corey, and thank you, Chris. It has been, I think, almost four years now. We're in 2024. And from what I know, Chris, our episode was one of the most popular, most listened to episodes of that year. And in that time, I am thankful to Chris and the ConnectAndSell team, I was able to grow my company to a million dollars in sales revenue. I won't say pounds because it doesn't sound as cool, but we hit a million dollars in sales revenue. We made over 650,000 calls. We landed about 32, 32 major clients that had an A CV of about 76,000 pounds each. They ran for about seven, eight months and we were on our way to becoming a very dominant player in the market as a boutique firm. But the normal peaks and troughs of startup life happened. Me, I neglected my marriage and my family and I focused a lot on my business.
(00:11:07):
And that ended up breaking down what that relationship was. I also made a few mistakes in that process, which I'm glad I made because it helped me figure out how to increase the value of my business, what I'm doing, profit margins and all of these peaks and troughs. Letting go of my entire team at one point has led me down a path to where I am today where I have an abundance, an abundance of knowledge, I have an abundance of experience, the types of conversations I sit in, the people in people's room and just really repeat what Chris has said, what Jerry has said, what all the CEOs that I've ever spoke to have said, and they're just thinking, who is this young kid? And I'm 37 years old. I'm proud of everything I've done to this date right now. I don't even know what my company name is.
(00:11:55):
I've changed it so many times, but where I am today, I'm the chief partnership officer of a company called mega.ai. I was brought into that company to build the strongest relationships in the industry. Chris, I believe is going to be one of, if not the strongest relationship I've ever had in my entire life because of this, Corey, hopefully you too. And the next journey in the next 11, 12 months is to build the next generation of autonomous agents that are going to be booking meetings 24 7, instant ramp up time, a thousand dollars an agent, 2070 5% cheaper than a human rep. And more importantly, your business can scale exponentially without the need for human labor. The only reason I've been able to build this type of narrative is because I ran 27 seconds, 650,000 times. So that to me, in a nutshell,
Corey Frank (00:12:47):
27 seconds, that actually works. Wow.
Shane Mahi (00:12:51):
Seven seconds and 20
Corey Frank (00:12:52):
Baby. So wild. Wow. So no, that is an incredible story. Of course, Shane, as impressive as that is, right, you're also a very prolific contributor, never with your handout, but just contributor and thought leader into the space of B2B sales. And I know your reputation speaks for yourself. You take calls at all hours of the night. People use you as the sounding board for so many of us in the industry. So that's also a testament, I think, to your great reputation. So great to have you. So let's jump into it, Chris, on this AI and sales, what chain is talking about, certainly with mega, we want to hear a little bit more about, but let me pose it to both of you guys. How are folks using AI today that really has changed from maybe even since the last time you were on the show, Shane, a couple of years ago. You have sales copilot, I think from Microsoft, you have Einstein from Salesforce, I believe, and certainly the ubiquitous ChatGTP that folks have been trying to write screenplays. But maybe you can talk a little bit about Chris, what you've seen certainly in the private equity side of other burgeoning businesses inside of ConnectAndSell, and then Shane, kind of what you're seeing as well. So Chris, what do you see as just the seismic tectonic plates that have shifted just in the last handful of years here now? Well,
Chris Beall (00:14:20):
The big shift was just in the end of 2022 actually when ChatGTP came on the market, it did something that was totally unexpected with regard to ai. Suddenly you had a popular, like everybody wanted it, everybody could figure out how to use it, AI friend, so to speak, that you could ask questions of. And it showed a couple of things. One is that vast general knowledge gained from just everything that's ever been out on the internet put into a relatively simple, but really, really big neural network that's organized in a very clever way can provide value to regular people that exceeds what they can get from going out and Googling. Because as the internet got more and more populated with websites that tell you everything, if you're being told everything, then you're kind of being told nothing. And so who do you trust?
(00:15:26):
To tell you the truth, well, Google came up with an idea a long time ago who has the most backlinks, and then they expanded on that with various levels of authority oriented algorithms and then somehow tried to make that work in a world that was fundamentally corrupt because they were taking ad revenue and they figured out how to square that circle. And then chat, GPT came along and said, eh, who really needs that? Just ask me a question and I'll tell you something. And then if that doesn't quite work out, ask me another question. And so instead of getting a bunch of stuff on the screen, including a bunch of ads, what you actually got was this sort of friendly, authoritative voice. And it took about, I would say, 362 milliseconds before somebody figured out how to use chat GBT in sales just by asking it to write an email for them.
(00:16:18):
And then they'd copy and paste it. It's a better writer than any of us as long as you accept whatever the style is and write in different styles. So you can ask it as you and I know Corey, we wrote a book in two days, and actually I just did it by copying and pasting stuff out of chat g pt, there's the book, right? Market Dominance book, a conversation with ChatGTP, and did that with no instruction, no nothing. And it actually walked me through the process of publishing it on Amazon. So end to end between six o'clock on a Saturday morning and 11 o'clock on Sunday night. That book was created from podcast episodes and it wrote everything except for the how we did it part. So that was already being used in marketing anyway. But the use in sales is pretty clear.
(00:17:08):
Most salespeople are not exactly readers and writers, shall we say, male colorblind, left-handed a DD. Dyslexics generally didn't grow up getting like you did a degree in Elizabethan poetry, which often does require a certain amount of reading. I'm sure you regret taking that path with the amount of reading it took, but actually Corey is a prolific reader, but sales is populated with folks who didn't raise their hand in class saying, oh yeah, teacher, I got the answer to that, right? It was folks who knew how to talk their way from a D to a C in order to graduate. So that was the immediate first use. And all the copilots are just that. That's where we've come, yeah, that's where we've come. I'll write something for you, right? What's happening now is much more interesting, which is, and this is what we'll have Shane talk about it.
(00:18:08):
This is what Mega is all about, as we whipped right by the Turing test. The Turing test was a big deal. If you're interacting with a bot and you can't tell it's a bot after a bunch of interactions by text, by the way, which is kind of a dumb way to do it. But if you're doing that and you can't tell if it's a bot or a human, well, it's passed the Turing test. And we've gone beyond some point in the evolution of computers and their relationship to society. We blew by the Turing test in one day and didn't even notice it. Nobody cared, nobody noticed, except people said, oh my God, it's going to take over the world. That, by the way, is ridiculous. Something typing to you is not going to take over the world and pictures don't help. It is, oh, it made a picture of somebody, great, fantastic.
(00:18:58):
But in sales. Now the big question is can you make a selling bot? And that is a graded question. It starts with, in my mind, can you get a bot to get a gatekeeper to do a transfer that's a sale. Can you do it? And that's a really interesting question. That's one that we're going to be exploring with mega because we have a lot of gatekeeper interactions and it costs money. It's human beings who are doing it. Maybe we can do it with a butt, I don't know. But I like baby steps. I'm an old rock climber. You can stare at the summit all you want, but you actually have to make the first move and it comes off the ground. So sitting back across the valley going, oh, look at that. Doesn't get the job done. So what's the first step in making a selling bot?
(00:19:49):
Probably talking to a gatekeeper. Not really a regular gatekeeper, but maybe just an operator. So we suspect there's things that can be done there. Now, can you go all the way to closing a deal? A real deal where somebody's putting their butt in the line where their careers are on the line, where they're risking everything, their family, their future on the advice of a vendor's, but maybe not just because of the vendor's. Butt is intrinsically at the moment on the wrong side of the uncanny valley or somewhere in it, and it's like, well, we know the vendor's but is clever. It was made by clever people. Hopefully their salespeople aren't quite as clever, so maybe I can trust them. But that's the continuum of questions. And yesterday, Shane asked me to be in a round table with a bunch of folks, and we were talking about the ethics, potential ethics, which I'd love to talk about here. But I think it's really about the practicality, the ethical difference between AI and not AI and sales is like the ethical distinction between a knife and a gun. It's like, okay, so with a knife, I got to get close to you in order to draw blood with a gun. I can do it from a little farther away. And if you're a certain friend of mine, that might be about two miles.
(00:21:13):
So is there an ethical difference between those? Not really. There's a practical difference between those. It's still unethical to walk up to Shane in a bar and say, Shane, you son of a dog. I used to think you were a wonderful person. And now I don't. And slip a shive into him that's just as unethical as shooting him as he comes out of the bar. What's the difference, right? So I believe this big ethics discussion tends to be a political discussion about computers, actually not about ai. And it has to do with who's going to get more power at different points in different processes.
Corey Frank (00:21:54):
Well, Chris, Let's talk about that just for a second with Shane and bring Shane in here. I see that ethical dilemma to me, it starts with authenticity. And if there is the sense chain that, hey, wait a minute, it's as if you're watching a Spider-Man Marvel movie, and you're just engrossed in the experience of swinging from building to building, and then all of a sudden I see a string holding Spider-Man, or I see a boom mic in the corner that maybe the editor forgot to take out. The illusion just goes down immediately. And I said, wait a minute. I'm in a movie theater here and I'm eating bad popcorn. This is not me. The stakes all of a sudden go from being here where I care about the characters to now the stakes are just cruelly, artificial. And Shane, do you find that, or how do you bridge that?
(00:22:48):
Certainly with your round table that you've talked with a lot of CEOs like Chris, but that authenticity, whereas as humans, we perceive those little subtleties and mood and those complex needs through a simple conversation. And when a tell happens from an ai, either Chris, to your point from a text or a bot, how do you combat that? Is that the racist to get to as authentic as possible or because that's where I think the Delta ethics happened. Chris is, wait a minute, I thought you were a real person, but now you're a machine. So Shane, what do you think about that and bridging that gap?
Shane Mahi (00:23:29):
So Chris mentioned it yesterday and it drove a lot of the discussion, which was it's the ability to tell the truth and just being truthful about anything upfront. And I used it when I started, and it comes from the 27 seconds, is the point of inoculation. And it's stating a fact before somebody has that objection. And if you are using any type of artificial intelligence, computer robot, I think the most authentic, genuine thing to do is to tell the truth. And that comes from, Hey, this is a robot, Corey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. If not, would you like to be speaking to a human? You'll then say, sure. The robot then has the advantage of saying, Hey, Corey, it's going to take about five to six minutes to patch you through. I can probably get your questions covered in the next 45 seconds.
(00:24:18):
Do you want to have a chat with me or do you want to have a chat with the next person? And for me, that makes all the difference because time for a ceo, for a business professional is absolutely everything. And the ability to cut out that wasted time is everything. I'll give you a quick example. I called, I mentioned it yesterday, right, Chris? I called Pizza Hut the other day and it took me six minutes to remove onions from my pizza because the guy kept battling from me that I said, you can't just pick the goddamn onions off the pizza. I don't like onions. And it was a nightmare. Now, had a bot just been able to say, Hey, which toppings would you like to add or remove if any? Just remove onions. My pizza's at the door in 10, 15 minutes. And for me, again, the truth allows that time to be shortened, which gives you more opportunity to take care of other things that are most important in your life.
(00:25:13):
And another thing that I think is really important, I just watched it the other day, and that point you made on authenticity and being genuine and the truth. Mackinac, I'm sure you both have seen that. I had no idea. I think Sam Altman is an ex Mackinac that's swear God, because when that person, the robot locked the door, obviously it's playing with the guy. I'm a sucker for women, absolute sucker for women. So if I was in one of those situations and they were manipulating me without knowing it and putting the love spot, well, were you really interested in me? He's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to get out. That is where everything changes for me. And now after seeing that movie, I'm wondering, Chris is very smart, Cora, you are very smart. Are you going to start peeling off your skin one day and saying the same thing to me?
Corey Frank (00:26:11):
Well, but I think that's part of it. It's a brilliant point. I love the trust thing. Chris and Shane, by the way, the coming up front, front loading the fact that my AI interaction may be lumpy. You may call me out on it. You may see the wires, you may see the boom bike, but come on, it's a movie. And so that authenticity can be front loaded by telling the truth. But Chris, do you see, and Shane, that a lot of these AI tools, the, is it Air ai, the one that has the demo for Apple? To me, that seems manipulative, and I think I'm not alone as a consumer, as a B2B consumer of say, they don't front load that authenticity or that honesty at all. But Chris, do you see there's a race towards making that seamless to the point where you don't have to even admit that? Or how was it received in the round table yesterday when you said that, Hey, I think we got to lead with this honesty and trust upfront? Well,
Chris Beall (00:27:17):
I actually think that this is one of those rare cases where the ethics and the practicalities converge so tightly that you will not win in the marketplace with a bot that doesn't say it's a bot. I think there's a lot of freaking out about this kind of stuff that just comes from how people kind of act like a bot. They sort of act like ChatGTP, and just start emitting the next words that come to mind, which is it's a bot, therefore it's not a person, therefore, it's inauthentic because they've heard that string of words before. But if you really think about it, we do love to interact with bots as long as they're responsive and we feel that they're sufficiently neutral. That's why chat GPT went nuts and became the fastest growing application in the history of applications because you perceive that it's neutral, it's on, if anything, it's on your side.
(00:28:16):
And in fact, it uses language damn well it's a bot, right? But it uses language that implies that it cares about you. When you correct it, I ask, Hey, tell me about Chris Beal. And it says, oh, Chris, he has a degree in mechanical engineering from Stanford, blah, blah, blah. And I say, no, no, no. I mean, Chris be the ceo, EO of ConnectAndSell co-host to market dominance guys. What about that guy that says, oh, yeah. And then it says some other bullshit about me. And I go, no, no. And it says, oh, I apologize. It apologizes to me. So it sees the world through my eyes, which is a bot that needs a little bit of help, kind of staying on the rails. But it does useful things for me, and it's not against me. I think the big issue is going to be being the vendor's bot.
(00:29:02):
We're making an assumption that a selling bot has to be the vendor's bot, but selling is a highly complex activity full of all sorts of interactions. One of the interactions is learning, do I need to learn one vendor at a time? James Thornberg would say, no, James Thornberg would say, and God knows, he knows more about it than any of us on this call. Being a neutral actually allows you to get better information and save time for the other party. You tell us your requirements once we'll tell you which of three or four vendors that we work with is most appropriate, and those vendors are going to pay if one of them actually ends up doing business with you. Because for them, channel doesn't mean manipulation. It just means being in the game, right? So we're making a lot of assumptions about the bot filled future of sales that are simply knee jerk.
(00:29:57):
They're simply, they're not really even proper assumptions. They're actually emotional reactions to the idea of being manipulated by something that might be smarter than us, and it's very, very interesting. So the ethics and the practicality are going to merge just the same way they do in the 27th seconds. So Shane mentioned, how often has he opened with those two sentences? I know an interruption is the key. I didn't say it right that time. Let me say it correctly. I know I'm an interruption now, why do I say that? Well, I say it because it's the truth, and I'm telling you that I see the world through your eyes. So I say, Hey, Corey, I'm called Sam, but I'm actually a bot and I'm working for Joey over at company X, Y, Z. What I do is I reach out to folks like you to see whether you are interested in learning more about X.
(00:30:55):
You could go, well, I am, I'm not. And I could say, as the bot, Corey, I know, I mean talking to a bot who's a vendor's bot especially could be uncomfortable and affected, but you could think I'm manipulating you. If at any time you feel that, just call me out on it. If you want to talk to a human, let me know, right? I could say that as a bot. I could say it just like that. Modern bots can say stuff like that. I can work my way from acknowledging the truth, still following Chris VA's advice, right? You've got to show the other person, you see the world through their eyes, then you need to demonstrate to them that you are competent to solve a problem they have right now. Those are two things. You have seven seconds to do it. Can a human do it? Most humans can't. We train 'em, they fail. Why? They won't throw themselves under the bus and they won't make it sound fun when they offer to move forward. And people call it permission-based, which is utter baloney. There's no permission involved here. It's doing these two important things. I could do those things. It's just cheaper. And by the way, it'll actually do
Shane Mahi (00:32:03):
I agree. I agree fully. I think that's a very, very, very important point. And anything that is scripted where it doesn't require too much thinking involved, such as let's just call it either an agent or the progression of an agent that becomes a bot or a bot in the future that has that four, five seconds of scripted behavior to get through the gatekeeper. Again, a human is going to cost five, six times more than that. Whatever kind of country you're in, if you can use a robot to do that kind of stuff and just be authentic, be genuine, inoculate before you get to it, the market, what is it? The barrier to entry or that crossing the chasm becomes much easier. What was I going to say in the ethics piece? You jump in again and then I'm going to jump on that piece. I just wanted to catch that last piece.
Wednesday Jan 31, 2024
Wednesday Jan 31, 2024
We're missing Corey Frank today, but we still have a meaty solo episode for you from Chris. Chris is diving into a perplexing sales practice - coaching cold calls. Perplexing because everyone talks coaching up, yet so few actually do it. He explains why this type of coaching is critical yet so scarce, why both the coach and the call induce fear, and how to actually make coaching work. With compelling examples from golf and hostage negotiations, Chris breaks down the elements of an effective coaching framework. The key - simplify each call into bite-sized pieces and target very specific first failures to drive rapid gains. This episode overflows with accessible coaching advice for sales leaders. Join us for this Market Dominance Guys Episode, “Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching.”
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"Comfort is always the enemy of performance." - Chris Beall
Others:
“Use recordings to model great calls, not critique.”
Here are 5 key points from the Chris Beall episode on coaching cold calls:
Coaching cold calls and unscheduled sales conversations is critical but rarely done effectively.
Recordings and delayed feedback don't work well for coaching short, high-pressure sales calls.
Fear of judgment from the manager and fear of rejection on the call inhibit performance during coaching.
Coach one specific first failure at a time, use repetition, and offer feedback immediately after the call.
Simplify calls into a repeatable framework focused on building trust, avoiding too much value too early, and closing for the next meeting.
Chris Beall (00:08):
Hey everybody. Chris Beal here with another episode of Market Dominance. Guys, I'm going solo today. Corey's tied up doing some kind of work that is probably super useful I'm sure, and I got a moment so I thought I'd do something fairly quick, but on a subject that's really been on my mind a lot recently, and that's coaching, and it's amazing to me but probably shouldn't be that there's so much talk about coaching in sales and there's so little actual coaching. So the question is why and is there something we can do about it or is this, there's something we should do about it First, I believe that at least for ambush calls for the cold call and the follow-up call that are unscheduled coaching is super important and super effective and the reason is that it's a short performance and the performance has got to be pretty precise to be effective, but it doesn't have to be perfect and we often fail fairly early in a cold call or fairly early in a follow-up call and when we do, we don't have a chance at what would come next.
Chris Beall (01:18):
There's not a lot of recovery time because there's an inclination on the part of the person receiving the call to go ahead and say, Hey, great, thanks for calling me goodbye. And that's if they're being nice. So what to do about it? Well, one thing that's recommended and one thing that's done a lot is recordings. So you record so that you can have a recording for the coach to listen to. And self-coaching and self-coaching recordings can actually be reasonably effective as long as the person who's coaching themselves has got a framework, they have a way of looking at and thinking about the recording. And as long as they get over the hump with regard to listening to themselves, a lot of people are very, very uncomfortable listening to themselves on a recording. I know I used to be, maybe I still am for all I know.
Chris Beall (02:10):
I used to make recorded videos back many, many years ago when I worked at Martin Marietta, now Lockheed Martin and I'd make a video every day and these were training videos in the world of software design and software development requirements, engineering subjects like that. And first few times I had to just look at that camera, how far away was it? I don't know, 16 inches, something like that, big studio camera and then even worse, spend the afternoon with my good friend Mr. Singer going through the material and editing it. And first I didn't have a very objective view because I was too concerned about that mismatch between what my voice sounds like to me inside, no echoing in my bony head and what it sounds like when it's recorded and coming back to me. So with recorded coaching, even self-coaching, it's rather challenging to get to the point where you're listening, I would say clearly.
Chris Beall (03:11):
And you still have to have a framework that you're listening for and so it's hard using recordings to coach somebody else that's really commonly said that it's happening. It's really, really common. There are products out there whose purpose is entirely to help you coach your reps and what I tend to find is they don't get used very much and when they do, they tend to get used in a way that isn't very effective either. Some scores are put on them that says, you did this well at this, you did this well at that, kind of like grading a paper or something like that. Or they're used to point out multiple places that the rep could have improved. And while it sounds great, most of the time, one, it doesn't happen, it's just too much work. And two, the reps don't know how to really interpret those offline comments.
Chris Beall (04:08):
Those comments that came from somebody listening to a recording and making their observations whether structured or unstructured. Meanwhile, there's an Allego study that says, and I think it's pretty accurate, that 54% of sales managers report that they provide an optimum amount of coaching, but only 37% of sales reps agree with their managers on that one. And 93% of sales managers report the coaching sessions they're providing are high quality. Only 68% of reps agree with that, and I guarantee you that's not for coaching. Ambush calls, cold calls and follow-ups. Now why am I so kind of focused on ambush calls? Because when we're out to dominate markets, we only have that first opportunity to make a good impression and that good impression means it's getting trust. So the whole concept of market dominance as we put it forth here on market dominance, guys, pretty simple pave the market with trust, harvest that trust over the next 12 quarters that it's going to take for the folks in your market overall, all of them to ultimately decide that they're going to replace their current solution with a new solution, which is when you have a shot.
Chris Beall (05:24):
So you've got a lot of patience, you have a lot of persistence, you have a lot of structured follow-up management that needs to be done. And in addition, you have these very short conversations that require coaching and they tend to happen, especially now in a work from home world, they happen somewhere else where the manager no longer is. So the old idea of walking around and at least standing there and listening for somebody to get a connection with a target and talk to them, that doesn't happen as much anymore. You can't really
Chris Beall (05:56):
Walk around your rep's living room, their office, or whatever at home or some Starbucks, god forbid, and listen for them. Also, if you're using conventional dialing technology like a telephone or a regular dialer, you're just not getting that many conversations. So if you're talking to say two people an hour, that's a long wait for the coach. So it's super inconvenient and expensive people like managers or coaches, if you have a specialized coach which are pretty rare, simply don't have the time to stand there and wait for a conversation, especially given how many of those conversations end up being super short, 10, 15 seconds because they're a brush off because they're a quick hangup because the other person really didn't want to be ambushed, which is always the case and the skill wasn't there to get through the first part of the conversation and get to something that felt more coachable.
Chris Beall (06:51):
So it's quite interesting when we look at the world of coaching, I think everybody knows it's very important that it's almost impossible to improve without it, that the unit of change within a sales team that's doing outbound calling is the individual rep. A rep will be very stable in their skills over time. They don't jump up and down with regard to their ability to open or their ability to get curious or their ability to handle standard kinds of cold calling objections or their ability to close for the meeting. Those things are pretty stable. One of them is the current bottleneck of their process and as the coach you need to find that one and then help the rep see a better way of executing that and I guess I'll say feel progress. That is when they execute in a better way, it not only produces a better result, but it feels better.
Chris Beall (07:48):
It's a very emotional business cold calling and it's because when we call we're the invisible stranger and we know that those objections really are kind of personal away, not to us as a person but to us in the role that we've chosen to adopt the person who ambushed them. And so we already have some concerns inside us about that and it's kind of difficult to get over those concerns and get on with it much less to perform something new under that stress. So why is it that we don't coach cold calls and unscheduled follow-up calls very much? Well, they're not scheduled so the coach can't make themselves available, but they're also very fast. A lot happens in a short amount of time. So what should you coach? Do you coach something overall like the tone or the pace or how confident they sounded? Do you coach their word choice?
Chris Beall (08:45):
What do you coach? It's not obvious what to coach. And so generally what does get coached if anything is a bit of a mishmash and the coach, the manager to get as much in to that particular coaching unit, I'll call it that feedback unit as they can and there's just no way to change multiple things at the same time for the next performance as a rep and so you just end up with a mess. The other thing is there's multiple agendas. So for instance, we run at ConnectAndSell. We run these things called flight schools and in the first session of flight school, which goes on for three hours, you're making cold calls as the student, you're actually doing real calls, you're doing the whole call end to end. Your goal is the usual goal. You're trying to get somebody to put a meeting on the calendar and yet for three hours you're going to be coached for the first three hours on every conversation or at least almost every conversation immediately after the conversation while it's still fresh in your mind and freshens your body.
Chris Beall (09:50):
Quite frankly, you're going to be coached on how well you execute the first seven seconds of that conversation. The first seven seconds are well known now by a number of folks who've studied this to be the amount of time we have to get someone to trust us. And given that trust is imperative in B2B, both within the call and then over the long period of time that we might have a relationship with somebody if we move forward with them, trust is so important. We have to make sure that we nail it. So we spend three hours in our Flight Schools three hours on just practicing getting trust and we do it the way that Chris Voss, the author of Never Split. The Difference How to Negotiate is If Your Life Depends On, it taught me one evening when I was very fortunate to get to ask him this question, how long do we have to get trust in a cold call?
Chris Beall (10:43):
He said, seven seconds. And he said, but it's easy. All we have to do is show the other person. We see the world through their eyes. We call it tactical empathy and then we need to demonstrate to them that we're competent to solve a problem they have right now. Well, we are the problem. Cold caller is the problem they have right now. So it's very easy to offer us a solution to that problem and it's actually fairly straightforward to make it clear that you see the world through their eyes. Just declare yourself to be a bad thing and move on. So we teach people to say, I know I'm an interruption. I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called. I know I'm an interruption, says I'm a bad thing and I'm not interrupting your day. I'm an interruption notice, I'm a noun, I'm a bad thing.
Chris Beall (11:30):
Nobody ever says, oh, an interruption, that's a great thing. And then immediately we change our voice to a playful and curious voice and we offer a solution to the problem they have right now, which is us. Well there is in all of that I can only say a lot. So when we're coaching, we've got to find one part to work on and then we need to master that part because that part comes before the next part and if we don't master the first part, there's nothing to master in the second part. It's kind of like if I swing at the golf club at the ball and I miss the ball or I hit it off the heel or off the toe or whatever, it doesn't really matter how great my follow through looks. It's just like getting over that. What we need to do is actually figure out how to do the thing before we might hit the ball.
Chris Beall (12:22):
It might be our stance, it might be our grip, it may be the way that we take the club back. It may be whether we're keeping our head relatively stable. There's a bunch of things that we need to do, but they're all before impact. None of them are after impact. So when we're coaching, we need to coach the before and then observe the after and then go back and coach the before again. So it's very important to have an agenda that's appropriate for what you're able to coach rather than the agenda being let's make the whole thing better. And there's various pieces. Cold calls are quite short, maybe five sentences that are always there and maybe three or four or more that are sometimes there average length of times about a minute and eight seconds unless you successfully schedule a meeting in which case you've got another, say a minute or so of meeting logistics work to do.
Chris Beall (13:17):
So in that call lots can happen. You've got to get trust, you've got to at least acquiesce to move forward. You have to get curious and that's something that takes about three hours to coach and is also just the curiosity element of the call. You need to avoid too much value because too much value leads to the classic we're all set objection, the objection. That is frankly not handleable. And so we've got to avoid that. Learning to avoid something is very hard. We're tempted to bring in more value and under stress we tend to say we're great. Here's something more about us. And so learning how not to do something is actually much harder than quite frankly learning to do it. So these are keys to different parts of the call. So you can't really coach the whole call. You have to break it down and then you have to allow time between the coaching sessions and the learning sessions in order for that to be internalized.
Chris Beall (14:17):
Repetition is super important. After you've coached one thing, first failure we call it, you need to have the coach, the rep actually repeats that particular thing that they're going to say probably 3, 4, 5 times immediately before going and performing again. And you need to have a mechanism to get to the next conversation quickly. I think that's how we at ConnectAndSell fell into all of this coaching and training stuff. We never intended to be there, but we do provide conversations pretty quickly, a minute and a half, two minutes. If you're connecting to the next live human, maybe three, four minutes if you're connecting to the perfect target, the actual person on your list, and that amount of time is still long enough that you're coaching input and the practice that you might have done will start to fade. That's why it takes repetition before the performance and then repetition of the performance and the next coaching cycle should be immediate and it should be the first failure actually it should be okay, you did that a little bit better, but this still could be improved.
Chris Beall (15:29):
So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time.
Chris Beall (16:28):
Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever. So the other thing that is required for coaching to work is you need, you actually need a script. There's nothing to coach to without a script. Coaching to generalities just doesn't work. If I'm going to teach you how to swing a golf club, I've got to have a specific idea in mind of how the golf swing works. I can't teach you a generic kind of like, well, it'll be whatever it happens to be. Let's see what feels good. I have to have a plan. You have to adopt the plan, then we have to break the plan down. And because it's a ballistic activity, a golf swing or a cold call, they follow a pattern and what you just did determines what you get to do next or what you can do next.
Chris Beall (17:22):
You can't stop golf swing partway down successfully. I know Tiger Woods can do it. I tried it once and if this were on video, I'd show you the two broken figures that I got from my efforts. Somebody was walking in the way of it, so it was probably worthwhile, but it just showed that you think you can do things that you probably can't do. That is you have this very sort of ballistic activity, but it needs a plan. It needs a first thing, a second thing, a third thing, a fourth thing. You need to start with the first one and then you need to be coached through that until you've mastered it, not to perfection, but to be sufficient to support the next one. If you're getting enough folks to go with you and trust you into the second part of the conversation, then you can start to be coached on getting curiosity.
Chris Beall (18:13):
A classic cold call goes from fear. That's the prospect's fear, not yours to trust in seven seconds because you did the two things Chris said you should do out of curiosity, which is how we avoid too much value, too much value and triggers the hey, we're all set objection. And then from there into basically commitment, asking for a close, you make an offer, let's meet. And then you've got to handle the natural objections after all, you ambush somebody and you have to also be ready to set yourself up for some sort of a follow-up conversation later because most of the time you're probably not going to get a meeting on a cold call. So these are all important. I'll call it tactical factors in coaching. You need a script as a framework to coach to you, coach to first failure. You need to have immediate repetition and practice of what the rep's going to say next.
Chris Beall (19:13):
Then they need to have performance hard on the heels of that experience. And then you're observing for where they improve and for still first failure and then you give the feedback on where they improved the coaching on the next thing to practice. You practice 3, 4, 5 reps and go back in and perform again. So that's the essence of coaching. Now we have kind of a real problem though, which is that the coach and the call are independently scary. The coach is probably the manager and managers have hiring and firing authority or at least strong influence over the people on their team. And that means the coaching may be interpreted as judgment, judgment on performance that might lead to potentially loss of job. It's very hard to improve performance unless you feel free to try whatever it is that's being suggested. And when you're afraid of failing at that thing, you're less likely to perform it particularly well.
Chris Beall (20:15):
So you have the coach being scary and then you also have the call itself being scary because nobody likes to be that invisible stranger. The invisible stranger tends to get rejected. People don't like to be rejected. Jeff Blunt wrote a beautiful book on the subject called Objections about how we feel objections as rejection and rejection is one of the most painful things we can feel. I have a theory as to why in the environment of evolution, the village being rejected ultimately could mean being rejected from the village. The word for that is exiled and exile was generally considered a punishment worse than death. So we're afraid of the coach because they hold power over us and we're afraid of the call because we know where the bad thing is and we know we're going to trigger a response. And you put those two fears together and they tend to be somewhat paralytic with regard to performance.
Chris Beall (21:13):
And everybody's different with regard to how they handle that kind of fear. Some people, they can perform reasonably well, even if they're scared in multiple dimensions. These people can go out and be a concert pianist or a major league baseball pitcher or whatever, and they can be under tremendous pressure and still perform. Most of us haven't practiced that much and don't have that much sort of, I don't know, Prozac running in our veins I suppose is a way to put it. So what do we do about it? Well, one thing to do is just physically remove the coach. So it's natural to work from home. You can't really feel in a product like ConnectAndSell if you're the user. You're having conversations with people, you don't really feel like somebody might be listening to those conversations, even if they're clicking the little whisper button after the conversation to give you their positive feedback and to give you their first failure observation, to let you practice a little bit with them and to go back into pushing the button as we call it and having the next conversation.
Chris Beall (22:19):
But that physical separation is actually very effective because out of sight is out of mind. It's hard to keep in mind two things. One is I'm talking to this person that I just ambushed and the other is that somebody I can't see at all is listening to me. So that's a good separation to achieve and it's actually one of the reasons that the old walk around listening to somebody, or as they said wire jacking, that's where you plug into the audio line. You plug into the headset as the coach and you're listening. That's why that's actually a harder environment, the physical environment to get high performance, which you want. You want the highest level of performance because you're looking for what shows up as a flaw. When performance is good, when performance is bad for some other reason, somebody they're sick, they're grieving, whatever it happens to be, that's a bad time to coach.
Chris Beall (23:17):
All we're going to find out is that they're sick or they're grieving or whatever. We're not going to learn very much. So what can we do about all this? Well emphasize long live coaching. Listen in, be patient. If you don't have technology like ConnectAndSell, and so you're going to wait a while, you couldn't coach multiple folks at the same time, if you can at least aggregate the audio and switch from one to another and get an indication when a call is actually in play when talking, and again, coach one thing at a time. First failure, avoid the temptation to coach the entire conversation. Use repetition immediately before the performance and of the performance itself. That is repetition before the fragment to be tried a little bit differently and repetition of the entire call. I think it's a great idea to coach about 20 calls in a row over maybe three hours.
Chris Beall (24:12):
That's why we structured Flight School like that. But at least having repetition of the entire performance of repetition of the coaching fragment is important. Tune up. Your listening there is drift. Everybody drifts. They drift from best practice under pressure. They go to what's comfortable. So a rep who might've said at one point, I know I'm an interruption, might take up saying, I know I'm a bit of an interruption, or I know that I'm interrupting your day. Those are very, very different. And the rep goes there because quite frankly, it's more comfortable. Comfort is always the enemy of performance in almost everything and in cold calling, it sure is. So you might get comfortable as a cold caller, but there's a more comfortable thing to do, which is to not be as good a cold caller. So use a simple script. Five sentences are enough to get the job done with the framework.
Chris Beall (25:06):
Drive out fear every way that you can, including not being physically present and use recordings to model great calls, not to critique.
Practice listening to recordings with your reps to find the things they improved and let them find the flaws on their own.
For recordings, it's a little bit challenging to go in and say there was your first failure because it isn't followed by an immediate performance.
So in summary, coaching is tremendous for cold calls and for follow-up calls, it makes a huge difference. You're asking somebody to perform something very difficult, very technical, very nuanced, very ballistic. One thing leads to another in a challenging emotional environment where they know they are a bad thing and there's no getting around that last part. They never become a good thing. Even if in your heart you're trying to help somebody, you also know you're an interruption.
Chris Beall (26:03):
It's super important to coach. It allows us to move the needle actually fairly quickly. We know in these Flight School sessions we've seen teams go from like 40% of quota to 110% in four or three hour sessions and stay there. As long as there is coaching for drift that goes on an ongoing basis. Simplicity is the key. Coaches got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact.
So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results. So for market dominance guys, without Corey Frank here, I'm Chris Beall. Just thought you might like a sort of practicum on coaching and happy calling out there.
Wednesday Jan 24, 2024
Wednesday Jan 24, 2024
As sales leaders, we're ultimately responsible for revenue growth. In part two of this must-listen episode, Helen Fanucci and Chris Beall reveal how to build an asset that drives results: pipeline power. Learn why phone and conversation intelligence beats guesswork. Discover how to arm your team with the right data to fill your pipeline with serious opportunities. We dive into the critical questions you must ask on every account to accelerate sales cycles. Helen emphasizes that trust builds between companies early on, so executives must engage alongside reps. Tune into part two for tangible tips on avoiding over-strategizing in favor of authentic conversations. You’ll pick up tactics to leverage intent signals, stop playing pipeline games, and create alignment around valuable targets. The key takeaway: with closed-loop feedback, your pipeline can become a core competitive advantage that speeds up cycles and boosts revenue.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Corey Frank (00:01):
Chris, you've said many times marketing has budget, but no headcount. Sales has headcount, but oftentimes no budget. I would imagine certainly one of the things with pipeline power, Helen, in this consultancy and this advisory that you have on helping clients get more refined targeting to think about their targeting differently is about giving more power to the sales folks. And perhaps if you're talking to the marketing folks, giving more power to the marketing folks, how to allocate their budgets and allocate the resource probably a little bit more efficiently.
Helen Fanucci (00:38):
Yeah, I think so. But it also may be, it depends on the size of the organization, but I think there is a strategic, there needs to be a decider, if you will. Okay, this is the strategic decision, the direction we're going in because the targeting is a representation or a manifestation of the strategy of the business strategy. So that could be the head of sales, it could be marketing, it depends organizationally where that lands, or it might be the CEO if it's a smaller company, but it does absolutely point to a business strategy. Now, if you get more efficient with targeting and are able to do more with less, that could be threatening to some sales leaders who want to have a bigger organization headcount wise, or that might mean higher quotas. So it just depends on the dynamics and I think it's really going to take some iteration and conversations with some, if you will, friendly customers, friendly folks that I have relationships with to actually kind of see what that dynamic is and what the sweet spot is in terms of the offering as well as really the business challenge that these companies are looking to solve.
Helen Fanucci (01:59):
Because it may not be targeting, per se, I say targeting, but it actually may be market expansion. They want to test more markets. I mean, there's a lot of ways to apply that methodology and thought process. It could be, as I said, grow revenue fast here, get feedback, do more, or it could be okay, we want to expand and we want to try out some new markets. So it'll be interesting as I get more time and focus engaging with my potential market to see really what's resonating and what the core, I have an idea of the core challenges, but I think in some organizations it will be different titles that care and it will resonate with some folks and other folks it might not resonate with.
Corey Frank (02:54):
Well, I see Helen on this. There's a market maker to open up your aperture when you look at your total addressable market is right. How everybody's taught is total addressable market, and then you have your service addressable market, and then maybe even under that, you have your serviceable, attainable market, right? So if TAM is your total potential market demand and then you have your sam, which is the portion that a business can realistically target, and then the OMM service attainable market is the portion that your business can realistically capture. If you're helping me expand again or open up that aperture a little bit tot to grab folks that maybe I didn't have access before, it seems like that aperture opening is good for small mid-size companies, especially because I don't have, at Microsoft you probably had X amount of account managers walking through the halls. You had X amount of client amazement managers, so you could fill in the gaps where maybe I couldn't see if I'm a small mid-size company to know, oh, no, no, no. Hey, Helen does the same thing that Chris, but Chris has a different title than Helen and she's on LinkedIn and Chris doesn't believe in that and he's not on that. Would you see that Chris, from market dominance perspective is that that whole aperture gets a little bigger?
Chris Beall (04:17):
Yeah, I think it gets bigger and then you get to wrestle with the big factor in business, which is time. One of the huge differences among businesses is just how long can they go without eating? So just like among animals, right? Really big animals like me, I won't say anything about you who have had plenty to eat and are genetically engineered by nature to be of a certain size. We can go without eating for quite a little while.
Corey Frank (04:47):
At least an hour. At least an hour, yeah,
Chris Beall (04:50):
At least in my case, I've made it 37 minutes once and it was quite good. So a very small animal, it might have to eat once every hour or something like that. And I think a lot of what constitutes advice in sales and marketing go to market is advice that if you're the wrong size company and you take it, you die, you actually die of starvation. It becomes a pretty serious business actually. So one of the factors you have to take into account is kind of like how much do you have to kill and eat in the amount of time you have before you get skinny and die? And when you're opening that aperture, now that translates into how fast can you explore that new chunk of market you're thinking about before it takes too long, right? So now the cycle time of exploration is super, super important.
Chris Beall (05:42):
And if you believe that conversations of the means for exploration and frankly I don't know of any other that delivers enough highly reliable high fidelity information, then the cycle time to next conversation within somebody hypothetically is worth speaking to in that wider aperture becomes the dominant feature in the execution of your strategy, and that actually becomes the dominant feature. The feedback becomes the dominant feature in your actual strategy because having a strategy you can't execute is kind of ridiculous. And yet we all start out with strategies we can't execute. We must because we don't know enough to choose a strategy, we can't execute. So our strategy is a hypothesis. We need to go out and engage. It always reminds me of when I first met Helen, we went sailing together and there was a little piece of equipment that was on the mast and she knows sailing and I don't, she races sailboats and I serve as ballast, kind of animate ballast, right?
Chris Beall (06:42):
There's killer whales and you can't get them to come up on the boat and do the job, so you use me instead. So I noted that when she saw this piece of equipment that was very small and looked out of place that she ran, actually went physically fast toward the mass, then stopped and examined. That's what you need to do in markets. You need to go fast into a point where you're engaging, which is the conversation. She was having a conversation with this loose piece of equipment with her eyes and her MIT trained brain, her engineer's brain, and then she came up with a strategy. The strategy from where she was sitting in the back of the boat and the stern would've been a poor strategy because she didn't have enough information. She needed the information from engaging the market, this little piece of metal that was hanging there looking funny in order to be able to go, oh, this is what I'll do.
Chris Beall (07:36):
I can safely tuck it away and ignore it, or I can take some time and fix it or whatever. I think that's a great analogy for this kind of work that Helen is embarking on with pipeline power is look, you got to have somebody go run into the market and engage it and talk with it, not for the purpose of making a sale this quarter, but for the purpose of efficiently gathering information that will inform your strategies. You even know which of those three strategic layers with regard to Tam you're in. Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you're fooling yourself, you're fooling yourself. If you aren't getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you're just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen's going to help her clients choose not to guess.
Corey Frank (08:33):
And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I'm a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I'm doing everything right. I have enough people, I got for more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I'm doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people power?
Helen Fanucci (09:05):
I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you're winning, who you're winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends how you have been crawling through your own data. So I'd start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you're currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you're doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let's say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other?
Helen Fanucci (10:24):
And I don't just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it's closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that's proprietary to you? Because can't build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you're collecting or that's proprietary and how do you get more of that that's relevant to your business? And I don't know if that's something in my experience anyway, that's not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don't have, or at least that's proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market.
Corey Frank (12:06):
Well, it also sounds like right Chris, defending, Hey, I got 4 0 9 a's that I have to do every year. If I can make an argument that I have some proprietary IP with regards to my cybersecurity database versus everybody else's, that could be an advantage from an acquisition or funding or valuation perspective. Could it not, Chris?
Chris Beall (12:31):
Oh yeah. I mean when you come right down to it, growth is the big driver of valuations and proprietary information is the big driver of growth. We actually, I think everybody knows that. It's like I want my really good reps out talking to people and learning what their needs are, proprietary information. That person told me what their needs are. I want to know when they're thinking of doing something. I want to know what other systems and processes we need to fit together with. I need to know who are the other people who are important in making a decision. I need to know if they're in a macro situation that tells me and tells them, Hey, we got to sit tight for a while, say in the middle of an m and a circumstance, but we think it'll be kind of done and integrated within three months, four months, five months, whatever.
Chris Beall (13:21):
All of that proprietary information that that's what is fundamental to being competitive. Your product features, your product capabilities are almost never going to be able to stand up to the market over time. Because if they're good people will copy them and they'll copy them. In fact, the innovator's dilemma tells us they will copy them with something that is cheaper than what you sell and not quite as good, but occupies a pretty big chunk of your addressable market. You're now obliged to defend from above, right? This is those who haven't read their professor, Clayton Christensen should grab their innovator's dilemma and reread it, and I would recommend rereading it twice actually, because most of us don't get it. When I read it the first time. It's interesting to me again, I told you, I just read a book over the holidays here about the second law of thermodynamics, which is about the second law is the one that says you can't break even.
Chris Beall (14:18):
You always lose. So the three laws are like, you can't win, you always lose and you can't get out of the game, right? Well, the one that says you always lose says things just get more disordered. Your job as a business is to create order by using energy up in the environment to do something. Well, what does that order? That order that lower entropy is in the form of information that allows you to go to the market more efficiently, talk to this person rather than this person. Have another conversation with this person in four weeks. Stay away from this person or this company because they don't have any need forever. Come back to these in a year because they will have need develop your product so it integrates with this product because that would give you access to this entire set of the market. All these things are driven by information that comes to you that creates order so that you don't dissolve into chaos, into entropy.
Chris Beall (15:14):
Like everything else in the universe, you're trying to fight against the tendency of the universe, which is to go crazy, to go disorder. The glass when it falls and breaks doesn't ever reassemble itself. Well, it's your job as a business to reassemble broken glasses or keep them from breaking. There's a lot of things that we can do. So what Helen is suggesting is one of the things we can do is let's pay attention to where we have a chance, but let's also find out if we have a chance that is let's make some good first decisions, hypothetical decisions as to where to go learn more, then let's go learn more, then let's make better decisions based on that information of where we should go learn more. Sales is actually a learning process primarily, and the exhaust of sales is deals and revenue.
Corey Frank (16:02):
That's great. Chris, you heard that one yet, Helen, from him. Sales process is predominantly a learning exercise and the exhaust and residue is revenue.
Helen Fanucci (16:14):
I think that that's not a compelling value proposition for a business, particularly when talking to sales leaders. They're accountable for revenue and yeah, okay, the learning thing, alright, maybe it's a more CEO executive conversation, but for most sales leaders, I don't think that's a winning proposition. That's just my opinion. I don't disagree with Chris, but I think there's probably a more elegant way to frame it that would resonate more with the audience.
Chris Beall (16:50):
I love that. Well, that's why I think most sales leaders last such a short amount of time in their jobs because they are held accountable for the quarter and maybe the next quarter, but the company is trying to do something over a longer period of time and you get this sort of mismatch. And so it's one of the big issues that we have now is it used to be salespeople. Were formally, informally responsible for nurturing their territory. We give you a territory. We don't expect you to leave the territory next quarter. We're actually thinking the longer you're in the territory, the more you're going to control the territory and the revenue you generate from the territory will become more predictable over time. That's kind of why we do it. You get Cory, you get Phoenix. Well, we don't know how big Phoenix is for us revenue wise, but we're pretty sure that if your butts on the line, your family's fortune's on the line and you're good, you're going to figure that out.
Chris Beall (17:44):
In a world where geography no longer dominates, territories become challenging. And now we've got to ask ourselves, well, so what are we really doing? And what we're really doing is we're saying sales, you've got a new problem. You've got to also nurture relationships over time. The old problem that you had when you had a territory, but now you have to do it with a lot less territorial clarity. And I think almost all conversations with sales leaders now are relatively uncomfortable for a whole bunch of reasons, including the macro economy, which doesn't help at all. They're held accountable for what happens when interest rates go up too. Interestingly enough, I actually agree with Helen. It's not a compelling value prop, but it's a fact of the world. And the fact is those who sell really, really well turn out to be those who learned the fastest and turn those learnings into compelling value for those that are ready to buy now and nurturing relationships with those who will be ready to buy later.
Corey Frank (18:49):
Well, and with what both of you have been saying, if it is indeed a learning exercise, and it may not be attractive to say that, hey, the residue is revenue, it also would yield the premise that the faster I can learn, the faster I can get to revenue, the more cycles I can put into that learning exercise. IE through nurturing, through cold calling, through understanding who my targets are out of the gate. It's measured three times, cut once and versus how a lot of organizations are. I give you all these tools. I'm going to bring in all the reps for outreach and SalesLoft and LinkedIn navigator. You're going to learn as a sales professional how to do it. But maybe my nature isn't to be a farmer. My nature isn't to be a nurturer. My nature maybe isn't to be a closer, my nature isn't to be a presenter, but I have an armed with all these tools.
Corey Frank (19:41):
I'm saddled with a number, a million and a half. I'll see you in 12 months. And that's usually where it ends. And the sales leaders are there to help support them, meaning let me know if you have a deal that has a couple of commas in it, because I'm going to come in and I'm going to help close that deal for you. But the tactical efforts are maybe probably geared around how your hygiene in Salesforce is. Maybe that's the majority of the tactical communication with the reps or in their all hands meetings. Correct. So it's interesting dilemma, but I'm looking forward to hearing more about pipeline power. And by the way, if you go to pipeline power.com, that's about offshore drilling rigs and things like that. Love it. That's not what we're talking about.
Helen Fanucci (20:22):
This is pipeline power ai. Thank you very much. ai. Although I don't think our website's up yet, so still working on that, but yeah, no, I saw that as well. I thought, oh, that's perfect. That means it's a completely different industry. No conflicts. I know this is pipeline power ai. By the way, Corey, your last statements there, the faster cycle time. This is why people who actually use the phone are going to win because they learn faster and leaders must work with their reps or understand how their reps are doing. You can't wait until there's a deal with multiple commas to go in and close it because it's already lost unless you're working with them earlier on because it is a team sport, and you've got to get executives engaged early on to have that trust building relationship. The company that's buying your product has to buy the trust of the company, not just the trust of the rep.
Helen Fanucci (21:24):
So there's a lot of leading indicators on territory planning, account planning, and I don't mean plan and put on the shelf, I mean plan as an inaction. Next steps, what are you doing? What's going on? What problems are we solving? What's the compelling event, et cetera. All the questions that you would know matter along the way. But yeah, so pipeline power is really about targeting and improving and using closed loop data. So as you learn, that goes into the model to improve better and better targeting so that the company can grow and accelerate revenues and valuation and exits or whatever the end game is for the customer's companies.
Corey Frank (22:13):
What I hear you saying is right, a page out of the book is love your team by arming your team. I think there's a recent LinkedIn post about that very thing, and so arm them the right
Helen Fanucci (22:24):
Way. Yes, we got arm your team along the way. Absolutely.
Corey Frank (22:27):
Well, wonderful. Well, Helen, thanks for coming, kicking and screaming to this episode of the Market Dominance guys, and glad you banished Chris to the corner of the house there where we normally get to opine and these weekly sessions. So Chris, final thoughts on love your team and on pipeline power and how it pertains to the market dominance mantra.
Chris Beall (22:49):
Well, market dominance is always about starting with a list because markets are lists, they're not ideas and getting that list to be sufficiently relevant that you can make hay while the sun shines, you can actually make some revenue off it. And then learning from those interactions quickly and make the list better and better. Sharper and sharper, more and more precise. That's the nature of the game. I love the name that Helen's chosen pipeline power. Your pipeline is power. Jeb Blunt says the pipe is life. And that's pretty true. I mean, the pipeline is the power of your company. When you look at your balance sheet and you ask what is the number one contributor to the biggest chunk of your balance sheet, which is called Goodwill, it's your pipeline.
Corey Frank (23:36):
That's so great and obviously valuations that we've talked about. So Helen, thank you once again for joining us. We hope to hear more and more as pipeline power learns more about this exhaust and residue that we've talked so much about in the industry. I think that no one is talking about this element of the tip of the spear as much, and I think the cycle times they're reduced, those are real compelling arguments to certainly engage with Helen and her team. So for the market dominance guys and Chris Beal, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.
Wednesday Jan 17, 2024
Wednesday Jan 17, 2024
Building a target account list is the critical first step for any successful sales strategy, yet it remains an overlooked and haphazard process at many SaaS firms. Rather than leave targeting up to individual reps, centralize it to boost efficiency and revenue growth. As Helen Fanucci, founder of Pipeline Power, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank emphasize in this episode, outdated title-based targeting must give way to responsibility-based keyword searches on LinkedIn and intent signals from job profiles. They delve into common missteps sales leaders make, from over-researching targets to allowing bloated pipelines and territories that hamper productivity. Tune in to learn how to focus your targeting, embrace open territories, have meaningful conversations, and build trust with the right prospects from day one. You’ll pick up tangible tactics to scale pipeline and accelerate deals. Listen to the first half of this discussion, Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Sales Navigator.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Corey Frank (00:30):
To be here, bestselling author of Love Your Team by Helen Fucci and former executive over at Microsoft and DRL over at Mediafly. So Helen is joining us today, Chris, and we're going to specifically talk about, I think something that we've talked about many times on the Market Dominance Guys, which is targeting, right, the four legs of the bar, stool, target list message, and reps. Sometimes we forget that targeting is one of the easiest to overlook, and so we brought the heat, we bring the expert, Ms. Fanucci on the market dominance guy. So Chris, over to you to introduce Helen and some of the things that we've been talking about before we jumped on air here about targeting and what we can all learn from Helen today.
Chris Beall (01:16):
Sure. Thanks Corey. Well, just to let you know, by the way, speaking of that Hawking thing, my most recent book I read is Molecular Storms, which is the application of the second law of thermodynamics to everything. So I think that it applies to targeting, actually, interestingly enough, targeting, it is an attempt to reduce the entropy that is the number of micro states that correspond to a macro state. The macro state in this case would be, Hey, bookings, we're making money. The micro states would be all of the folks that you talk with and what you're talking with them about and all that. And you're trying to get that ratio in line so that you can survive by talking to relevant people, avoiding talking to irrelevant people and all that kind of good stuff. And Helen and I talk about stuff like this all the time.
Chris Beall (02:00):
Somebody said to me once, you must be the nerdiest people, at least in all of Quail Creek as a couple. And I said, well, perhaps as a working couple, yes, that's possibly the case. We may have nerdier people here in Quail Creek, but I don't think very many of them were both of them profess to have jobs. So Helen, you've had some recent experiences and some previous experiences that I think bring something about targeting into focus that is often missed, which is kind of the cultural issues and the people issues and the change management issues around targeting and B2B, Corey and I tend to refer to it like, Hey, you're the boss, let's make a list. And as you have known all along and have certainly gotten to experience recently, it's not quite as simple as that from a people perspective.
Helen Fanucci (02:55):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot to be said in response to what you just said. So I've never had a job or been in a company where there was centralized targeting. Of course, everybody wants to engage the market. So when I was at Microsoft and my team had these big global accounts like Intel and hp, they were responsible for their own targeting and creating a strategy for reaching out to executives or go higher or broader, what have you across the organization. But even if an account rep didn't have a single account but had a territory, again, they were responsible for it. And then more recently at Mediafly as a CRO, the reps would decide what accounts to focus on and who to reach out to as well as the SDRs. And it just got me thinking that that is perhaps a misuse of resource, that it might be more effectively done if it was centralized.
Helen Fanucci (04:08):
And then there was some deliberate strategy around the targeting rather than leaving it up to the individuals with a theory that, well, they're being paid to make their quota, and it's up to them how they go about doing it. But I think that that actually is inefficient. There is a piece about it in terms of defining strategy and helping craft that strategy as represented by who do we want to talk to in the market? Who do we want to get feedback from in the market? Who do we want to pursue to generate growth and revenue? And then there's a piece that is just, let's do a job well and have it centralized versus the fragmentation that comes when everyone's doing and applying it in their own way.
Corey Frank (05:00):
So if we could take a step back though, Helen, I mean Chris, you and I, we speak with a lot, lot of organizations, a lot of CROs, a lot of VPs of sales. How do I do this really poorly? In other words, what is a traditional steady state of an organization? When they say targeting, do they say, Hey, I gave you LinkedIn navigator, you know what industries we play in, what geographies you are responsible for? Is that where it typically ends for most organizations?
Helen Fanucci (05:30):
Yeah, I think that that's a really good statement. So there's Sales Navigator, but then there's also data providers. And I like to learn by doing. So I went into sales navigator myself, and then I put in our data provider, they have a Chrome plugin. And what I noticed in the lists on Sales Navigator when I wanted to translate that into a contactable list with phone numbers and emails, that the data provider only had about 50% of the people that I had identified in Sales Navigator that I wanted to reach out to or have my team reach out to. And I thought, man, that's really inefficient. That doesn't feel great that we don't have all the data. It's multifaceted. Are we talking to the right people? There are people who are experts that have felt that, okay, I've been successful selling to vice presidents of sales or sales enablement or what have you.
Helen Fanucci (06:36):
This is how you do it. Go into Sales Navigator, get their contacts, et cetera, et cetera. So it kind of pretty much ends there. Some companies have the point of view that's really important to do research, and in fact, when I was at Microsoft and I was trying out or utilizing ConnectAndSell to reach HR executives, I thought, oh gosh, I've got to do some research on these people because what if I ended up talking to a few of them, which I hope to do? And they said, well, wait a minute. We have a relationship with Microsoft. I felt like they would expect me to know more about our mutual relationship. So I did some research and when I used ConnectAndSell, I realized, oh my goodness, I over researched. I did it for my comfort as it turned out, but it was not actually needed in the conversation. So I think sometimes that happens too. People get over
Corey Frank (07:41):
Researched, our good friend, mutual friend, Steve, Richard, right? He advocates the three by three, Chris and Helen, which is, hey, get three pieces of information in three minutes before you make the call. Now, Chris, you and I are big advocates of, although Steve is brilliant in many aspects, I think we fundamentally disagree if you're doing cold outreach to do three pieces of information for three minutes before you make a phone call. Correct. Tale's point about doing too much targeting, too much research before you jump into a role of cold outreach free.
Chris Beall (08:16):
Yeah, I mean, given that there's a one and end chance and running between 10 and 30, that person's actually going to answer your research is wasted somewhere between 90 and 97% of the time. So we don't do very many things in life where we say, I insist that this be done. This is the most important thing to be done. And by the way, it's complete waste. At least one out of 10 times you do it, you're just going to throw it away. It's sort of like saying it's really important for these students to do their homework. So we know that they're practicing and learning, say in a calculus class, and we're going to assign them the homework, and then when they turn it in at random, we're going to burn 90% of the homework that they gave us as well just, I don't know, we can't read it or whatever.
Chris Beall (09:05):
I don't know if that's a great analogy, but it's kind of similar asking somebody to do work and then throw away that work because the next step in the process is fundamentally statistically unreliable is just bizarre. And in fact, I don't know if you know this, Corey, but our friend Jeb Blount called me last year and said, Hey, you did this presentation at Outbound about time, about how many hours in the day that we have, and I think my calculation said that it takes about 25 and a half hours in a day in a given day, and there are not 25 and a half hours in a day to follow the research and call program that's recommended if you are attempting to talk to 10 people a day. So when you kind of look at it that way, it's like our people at ConnectAndSell talk to 40 people a day.
Chris Beall (09:52):
Would you rather have 40 conversations in which you're relying on, I'll call it the canned research, which is are they in your ICP as a company, do they meet the criteria for size of the company, industry, whatever it happens to be, and is the person more or less somebody that you want to talk to either to get a meeting with them or have 'em direct you somewhere else and yes, no, not me, not now kind of categorization. If the answer is you've done a reasonable job making the list in the first place, our view is just talk to somebody you're targeting actually starts with the conversation. It's true. It really starts with centralized list building, but the real action begins in the conversation where now you're targeting based on high quality information coming back at 20,000 bits a second rather than here's something I read and I sure hope it's relevant and I can use it. By the way, research has another problem, which is almost none of it can be used in a cold call safely. You call somebody up and say, Hey Chris, how about the Wildcats? And I go, actually, it turns out I grew up in Scottsdale and I was a big A SU fan.
Corey Frank (11:00):
That's right. That is true. It's inauthentic, right? Authentic and highest degrees can actually dissuade somebody from building trust, which is the intent of the cold call to begin with, because that feels manipulative from a traditional vanilla list building. Helen, to your point, about 50% or x percent of a given cohort that I want, they're not available on traditional off the shelf one source, right? There's a LinkedIn and may have to cross reference to get all these other different platforms. So when you give one of your reps, let's say Microsoft or any of the other executive positions that you've held, do you assume that is that go with part of their expectations that you know that there may be 58 people inside of Honeywell that I want to target for this particular software product, but really only 14 or 15 of them are readily available in traditional office sell type of solutions. Do you factor that in when you're working and leading your team?
Helen Fanucci (12:01):
Well, so a couple things is you've got to factor in that you're not going to be able to reap everybody. Yes, that's true. However, if it's a big company like Honeywell and you have a big team like I did at Microsoft covering Honeywell, chances are they can navigate to those individuals in ways that the average person going in through Sales Navigator or a data source. So that was an advantage position for sure. But if you're not in Microsoft and you're in another organization that doesn't have those relationships, then I think it behooves you to have a broader list of folks. There is an assumption that you know who to talk to, but that's a bad assumption. So one of the things that I believe deeply is that anyone you talk to, you're going to learn from. And years ago when I had my first sales job, part of the training I got navigating and selling in big organizations is talk to people at lower levels or easier to get to learn and find out what's going on, and then who's responsible for solving a certain class of problems that your product addresses and then ladder your way up to different people in the organization or get sponsored in.
Helen Fanucci (13:28):
So I don't ever have heartburn over talking to the wrong person because it's always a learning opportunity. And in fact, one of the things I think is missing, and if you look at my LinkedIn profile with pipeline power, I talk about closed-loop targeting. And what that means is taking your learnings from lots of different sources. It could be from your CRM system, it could be from your outreach, the dispositions of your outbound lead sources, what have you, and find out, use that data to inform and sharpen your targeting so that you can be more and more deliberate as you go to market.
Corey Frank (14:14):
That's interesting. I haven't experienced that. I haven't heard that. So there's probably an element where if the three of us are all doing cybersecurity inside of Honeywell, we may have the same title, but odds are is we don't, there may be some standards that are on a business card that are in the HR PeopleSoft system, but when it comes to maybe a LinkedIn or what a Zoom or with these other off the shelf type of solutions, it seems like that's a big rub. That's a big problem out there, is trying to coalesce these lists when three of us are doing the same gig. Same, but we have three different titles, but yet I'm supposed to try to search, my boss said I want to search for these titles. Marketing said I want to search for these titles. And therein lies a little bit of the challenge, doesn't it?
Helen Fanucci (15:02):
Yeah. Well, that's your first mistake. I think titles are an outdated mode of targeting, but they're the common practice. It's a common practice, but it's not common sense. It's kind of the opposite from my book is common sense, but not common practice. Well, I am putting that on its head and going after common practice is not common sense. So the reason I say that is a director of sales can mean a lot of different things. It's a titled and so if, to use your analogy, if the three of us are responsible for cybersecurity, but we have different titles, why not just search on the term cybersecurity and sales navigator? Because people in their profiles on LinkedIn, they represent what they do and the words they say and it's like, okay, so who cares about a class of problems? Is it if it's cybersecurity, they probably talk about cybersecurity or they probably talk about threat detection or whatever kind of security words that are relevant.
Helen Fanucci (16:20):
It's also a representation of what the company has hired them to do. I know a lot of people will look at job postings to find out what company strategies are, what gets revealed through company strategies, but also if you look on LinkedIn, it will reveal people who care about a certain class of business issues by how they structure and what they put in their LinkedIn posting. So why not search on that instead of director of sales, or you could do director of cybersecurity or what have you, but just put in cybersecurity as a title and search on that and then see if you get closer to a optimal target list.
Corey Frank (17:09):
Yeah, so because fundamentally, what I hear you saying, and Chris, we've talked about this in the past, is that my message is why the power of the 27-second message is relevant today. But if I'm a inside sales rep and I'm trying to craft a telemarketing, an outreach message, I risk if that is catered too much to the three by three pieces of information or what I think is that particular title, your example of Wildcats versus Sun Devils for instance, and whatever is the equivalent in a business outreach. I risk wasting a lot of my outbound conversations that I have with the message that is too catered too specific to what I think is the title. Do I have that right, Chris and Helen?
Chris Beall (17:55):
Yeah, that's a big part of it. I mean, I'll give an analogy. If you're in a gunfight, if it's dark, you want a shotgun. If it's light, you can see the target. Clearly you might want to a rifle. If you're far away, you might want a sniper rifle, right? Well, in business, when we're starting to engage, we're trying to figure out what's going on. It's a dark room, it's a dark world, it's dark woods, and we really don't want to be too precise at that point because that precision just means we don't get any feedback when we miss the target, all we get is a hit or a miss. I'd rather wing a few of them and hear the Yelp. So anyway, you get what I mean, right? And what Helen's pointing out also, I think speaks to this other question of intent. So we've talked about how what's called high intent now is somebody from that company maybe in a relevant position if we can figure that out, is looking at our website or is looking at other folks' website or is going G two crowd and poking around or whatever they're doing.
Chris Beall (18:57):
That's called high intent. It's also called by people who understand strategy entering a red ocean. If they're looking at your competitors and they're looking at your category and they're looking at you, that means it's a competitive situation already. One of the main things we want to do in business is stay out of competitive situations. It's always a problem when it's competitive. It means you come down to battle cards, you come down to besting, whoever it is while they're in the fray. You'd rather come and actually win in advance by building trust early and then waiting until somebody is appropriately in market. So the way we miss is not so much in space, but in time we miss by being too early. We miss by being too late. Well, too early is great, too late is bad, and right on time isn't as good as early.
Chris Beall (19:44):
It just isn't. You'd rather be early when you can dominate with trust. So that's part of it. The other part about intent that's interesting is let's compare two things. So there's a website visit, somebody shows up at a website and looks at something. So that's thing number one. Or to quote Dr. Seuss thing one. Then there's thing two, which is you pay a bunch of money to have somebody do a job for you. Now, which one shows greater intent? A website visit or paying somebody a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to do an important job for you? Clearly the latter shows more intent to solve that problem on the part of the company, the employer than the former, which is somebody goes, looks at a website. So we have these multi-billion dollar unicorns that have been built around intent data, which is mostly website visits, and meanwhile, the most obvious and powerful piece of intent data.
Chris Beall (20:39):
What did companies actually invest in their biggest investment, which is always people sitting right there in the profiles, as does people describe themselves in LinkedIn Sales Navigator. That is they describe themselves in the same way their company would describe the job to be done because advertising themselves to future employers to do that same job. So you get intent more clearly out of job profiles than you do out of the big fancy intent products, including LinkedIns because there's no choice. I hire somebody to do a job. How are they going to describe themselves to the world as somebody who can't do that job? That makes no sense.
Corey Frank (21:25):
That's fascinating. And in your universe then, I would imagine, right? Helen, I'm sure you saw this when you had a new rep who penetrated an account, Chris, you see it all the time at ConnectAndSelll, my universe on day one, maybe this size, my universe on day 30 is this size my universe, right? And day plus X or so is even smaller, and that's ultimately that filet that I can continue to harvest. And if I don't target, what does my universe look like Pretty consistently, probably maybe basis points, degrees in much smaller at gas. Correct.
Helen Fanucci (22:01):
One of the things that was interesting is this idea of territory assignments, and we have a rep that has a locked in territory and people, I guess feel a comfort zone with that versus well, okay, here you have maybe 10 accounts, but all the other unnamed accounts are fair game and they go to whoever gets a meeting in those accounts. It's so interesting to see how anxious or irritated people are by having open territory concept. It's like everyone wants to have their patch defined, locked down so they can pursue it as they wish. So is that going smaller and smaller? It probably is, and it was just fascinating to me to observe the dynamics around that and the discomfort with having all these accounts that were fair game for anyone to go after. I wonder if you have seen that much in what your thoughts are about that, but when you talked about the shrinking world or shrinking view, that's kind of what I was thinking about is, yeah, you can zero in, but then you lose sight of what's possible where you're not looking.
Corey Frank (23:21):
Yeah, it's funny. I think it's probably the same reason why a lot of sales reps have the security of a bloated pipeline. They can't disqualify folks in this particular quarter. Hope Springs eternal that this person will always close for this angst, this fear that if I keep sending them touch base emails, not picking up a call and have a conversation, not promoting something new, that I'm seeing what's happening in the world from 40,000 feet that's relevant or German to them. But if I simply do touch base emails, which is the equivalent of did you decide on choosing me and giving me your money yet? Or is there a better option that's out there? But that's why pipelines remain large. I can see that there is certainly from the team that all three of us collectively and Broaden knows we're a sales organization. The bigger, the more states I have, and Chris, you and I have talked about this when it comes to people too, if you're a sales manager, the more people I have under my purview, under my fiefdom, certainly the more prominent I am, I guess the more secure I feel. You probably saw this a lot at some of the larger companies you were with Helen, right? Is how many headcount are under your particular p and l, and that somehow is a status thing.
Helen Fanucci (24:33):
Well, it's power. You have more resources as a sales leader. You don't have budget compared to headcount. So headcount is more resources. It is a version of power to be able to get bigger revenue, bigger quotas, because headcount always comes with bigger quotas. The more headcount, the more quota. So if you're willing to take that on, great. Why not?
Key Points:
Centralized targeting can be more effective than leaving it up to individual sales reps to figure out their own targeting (Helen)
Over-researching targets is inefficient since there is a low chance of actually reaching many of those contacts (Chris)
Targeting based on titles alone is an outdated approach; it's better to search for keywords related to responsibilities in LinkedIn profiles (Helen)
Being too specific with an initial outreach message risks wasting conversations and not getting helpful feedback (Corey and Chris)
Job profiles show greater buying intent than website visits since companies invest significantly in hiring people to solve problems (Chris)
As reps develop domain expertise over time, their relevant target universe tends to become smaller and more focused (Corey)
Many sales reps feel anxious without strictly defined territories and accounts; they resist more open territory concepts (Helen)
Sales leaders often equate headcount and territory size with power and status (Corey)
Tuesday Dec 19, 2023
Tuesday Dec 19, 2023
Discovery calls are typically auditory-only affairs, but this episode of Market Dominance Guys reminds us that we are physical beings having a full-person experience. As Chris emphasizes, you don't converse with a brain in a jar, so why disconnect your body from the persuasive power of discovery? From micro-prancing, to miming props, to the hepatic value of gestures and pauses, your physical presence profoundly impacts connection, emphasis, and revelation. Body language not only expresses what pure words cannot, but it heightens the musicality and truth-emergence Chris describes as “letting the silence breathe.” So start envisioning your prospects, get your blood pumping, and bring your whole self into alignment with the call. It’s time to let your full-bodied discovery create breathing space for truth. What non-verbal techniques will you incorporate next call?
This is a continuation of last week's discussion with Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease. You can listen to the previous episode here.
EP206: Mastering the Art of Silence How Pauses Can Improve Discovery
Links from this episode:
Shawn Sease on LinkedInHenry Wojdyla on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch49ConnectAndSell
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Corey Frank (00:00):
Chris, I know you and fetching Ms. Fanucci got back from a recent trip to the wine country in the south of France, and I think you told me a few stories about how certain wines need to breathe after they're open differently than others. And Henry, it sounds like what you're trying to teach us here is that there are certain questions that you can just let, is there a French term for that, Chris, that breathing? What's the wine?
Chris Beall (00:24):
My French sucks, but it is ironic when you think about it, right? I think this actually is a pretty APTT analogy you've brought up. The wine is corked so that it almost doesn't breathe. It actually breathes a little bit. This why real corks are considered to be important in some kinds of wines because there's a little oxidation that needs to go on over a long period of time. There's a little breathing, but then you went a lot of breathing reasonably fast. I have no idea what that is called In French, my French got better after 21 tastings one morning before lunch, and then we climbed a mountain together that it was really quite fluent, I'm sure at that point. But I don't think I knew how to talk about this, but it is really something. I mean, this is true in music also. The silences are where the music has actually heard, so to speak, when you're learning to play.
Chris Beall (01:13):
Henry is a musical person. He's been involved in this sort of stuff too. When you're learning to play as a little kid, the rest don't mean nothing to you. And when somebody's a virtuoso, the rests are everything. It's the timing of the silence and the precision of the silence that allows the listener to become part of the music. And that's what you're really looking for in discovery is you want the other person to become a producer of the music of these truths that are coming out and you're working together on them as shunts. I love that. We're going to do this together. We're not going to do it. I think that's not so much of a command, like I'm setting up a set of conditions. Either you do this with me or we're not going to do it. It's a statement of fact. Either we're going to do it together or we're not going to do it, as in we're not really going to get it done.
Chris Beall (02:02):
We're just going to kind of sound like we're getting it done or act like we're getting it done. And getting to the bottom of stuff is quite difficult with folks. It takes pregnant pauses. I mean, pregnant pauses give birth at some point, and sometimes they give birth to stuff that's pretty magnificent to something new and it's the hardest thing we love to fill in. You imagine a podcast, say we ran the podcast like this, Corey, you ask a question. We all just sit here and look at the audience for, I don't know, 30 or 40 seconds.
Corey Frank (02:34):
Yeah, yeah. Take off the glasses once in a while, right? We've talked about that here at branches is the world of hepatic and NLP, and I know we have to cut you loose here in a minute, Henry, for a seven or eight, nine or figure deal here that you're pursuing. But can you use those verbal disfluencies, the hepatic, the pregnant pauses to take off your glasses and lean forward as if we were together where there's a figurative me reaching out just slightly touching your knee as I take off my glasses and leaning forward a good doctor would like a good therapist would, and tell you what I think. And with the deep baritone with the late-night FM DJ voice that our friend Chris Vos talks about, there's a musicality of that glorious bastards, right? One of my favorite scenes is towards the end when they're trying to impersonate, they're an Italian film crew.
Corey Frank (03:25):
We all remember it. Christophe Waltz knows that they're not Italian, but he has them introduce themselves name by name, and he says, what's your name? And is his Antonio Margarita or whatever his name is? Well, say it again. Let the music flow. He says, let the music of your name flow. And I just thought that was incredible that there's certain words that you can enunciate and Henry's got a great tone. I could listen to Henry read the phone book Vincent Price, and you have Christopher Lee and there's one that will post to this that I tagged Yuan, a LinkedIn post from a gentleman who I thought had, what an incredible novel way to introduce himself. His name is Andrea Kliman. Chris, I don't know if you saw that. Ronan a good friend, Ronan Ssar, but his intro, the gentleman, and you remember this call Shawn. It was all pushed forward by his tone.
Corey Frank (04:19):
It was very novel, it was very serendipitous and it wreaked of authenticity because of that and the trust he had me, and I've never heard an intro like this before. We'll link it to this podcast here so people can hear of it. Then I did while you were talking, Henry and Chris, I think my French sucks too, but the appropriate term is eon, I guess to aeration. And so I think we said Eon de latia. So the Wtia method is to ask a question and to just let it breathe and let it aate. Let ruminate.
Henry Wojdyla (04:56):
You're making it sound far more eloquent than it probably really is since you've mentioned a few names. Someone for me is a more recent discovery. I'm sure you're been aware of him for some time. And Corey, he's in your neck of the woods there in Scottsdale that really I think has some good thinking and training around this is Jeremy Minor. I'm assuming you're familiar with Jeremy. Don't know what your thoughts are there. Not really tremendously get into it, but I've just found some of his thinking around it. Helpful. At least for me.
Corey Frank (05:20):
He uses hepatic a lot where he'll use the props, right? Henry of take it off his sunglasses and emphasizing, and we have Chris and Shawn Miller. We have a lot of standup desks and I'm Sicilian, so I have to talk with my hands and I have to have a prop in my hands at all times. And so I think maybe the last thought, Chris and Shawn and Henry for you, certainly as you're dealing with high stakes deals is things and props and pacing mechanisms. You do the micro prancing, Chris, which I'm sure keeps you on pace for your phone calls, but maybe we'll put a bow in it and go around the horn between Henry and Chris and Shawn here on your go-to techniques. If I'm a new sales rep and I don't employ just fluencies or tonality or I'm not aware of my tonality or I don't use props or micro, give me your one go-to that I should have in my arsenal as a new sales rep when I'm doing discovery. So Shawn, let's start with you.
Shawn Sease (06:12):
I got here. I'm afraid if I say something, I'm going to steal Chris's thunder because I've been mentoring under him for so long that I might say something that I learned from him.
Chris Beall (06:21):
Don't worry, Shawn, I ain't going to run out of thunder anytime soon.
Shawn Sease (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead Chris.
Chris Beall (06:28):
Well, I was on somebody else's podcast yesterday and we're talking about language thinking and speaking. What happens when we speak and we tend to be very abstract about these concepts. We act as though we might be chat GPT, and it's just one word after another coming out. We add the disfluencies, we add the tonality, we start to sing, and we think that we're doing that with our brain and maybe some little part of our voice box or something like that. I truly believe that we think with our whole body and we've never walked into a room none of us have, and there's a brain and a jar and we have a conversation with it, right? The person is a whole person. When I'm micro prancing, I'm a whole person in motion. I realize not everybody in our vast audience will know what micro prancing is. Just so you know. It's a technique I accidentally developed to train for a very difficult marathon, the Mount Lemon Marathon in Tucson in a room in India, that in which I had 10 meters in which to train, and I'm getting ready to run 23 miles uphill, one mile flat, one mile super uphill, one mile, very down. So that's what micro prancing is. For those of you who want to learn more about it, there is no place you can go to learn about micro prancing. It just is what it is. Well,
Corey Frank (07:47):
Actually, sorry, Chris. There is a place you can go see the old Monty Python Ministry of silly walks. I think that's probably the closest that people will get to your microprancing. But go ahead.
Chris Beall (07:57):
Yeah, that was Michael Prancing too, which is a special thing. But to me it's like when you're bringing your whole person to be helpful to somebody else, you are a whole person. You're actually a physical person. You're not just a bunch of words streaming out. You're not a recording of something. It's not a trick. You're there to be authentic. You have to also be in your physical self, and it's fun to play with people like that. I do it on calls all the time. I'll do a thing where I do this. It's like we're talking about cold calling us. I hold up the flight school shirts. I see flight school, right? Because it's real. And that's how we think about others too. We think about what we're hearing from other people with their bodies also, and that's why you have to be highly respectful of the late great Stephen Hawkin.
Chris Beall (08:47):
Can you imagine having that little control of your body and being able to think and express thoughts that big? It's one of the most amazing bridging of a gap that's fundamental that we take for granted. However, he had a wonderful physical struggle, which was actually physically communicating. So without that, the game can't be played at all, so to speak. So anyway, my advice to folks about this is you and the other person are both real people. Zoom didn't make us into anything else. We're still physical bodies and references to that. My story about my first conversation with Helen of substance where I said, use the word blood. There are words that invoke physical reactions in us or evoke them that allow us to get closer to the truth with each other, that break down some barriers that offer opportunities for silence that's productive, and it's smart to learn how to use those words fluently so we can use them fluently when appropriate. You cannot be disfluent on any words that you can't emit fluently. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't. Your body has to be capable of executing the language in a way that works for the other person all the way through if you want to execute the language in a way that works for them even better.
Corey Frank (10:09):
It's not mere words that matter. It's not just belief. As we've talked about right now, you have the triumvirate of your words, your belief and your body, it sounds like. That's great, Henry, thoughts on that?
Henry Wojdyla (10:21):
My answer is going to be a little bit different. In fact, in some ways it's not necessarily contradictory, but I think you use the term hepatic. Is that correct, Cory? Just to show how little I know about this.
Corey Frank (10:30):
Yes, it's part of this. When your aunt grabs your cheek, when people touch your elbow, they touch your knee just naturally at the base of conversation.
Henry Wojdyla (10:37):
I think when it comes in the context of discovery call, and if I'm really getting into a deep, I almost might go to the other direction, meaning I will often close my eyes, sometimes I'll even rest my head on my hands, whatever. Again, these are telephone-based, so I'm not mostly on a Zoom. I'd probably conduct a little bit differently if I was in that format, but somewhat like I was saying, shut up to allow them to speak. I'm also shutting up in blocking out all of their sensory perceptions. So I'm really truly listening, very simple, not necessarily the most elegant answer, but it's the truth, and I'm finding that it's actually really helping. Nothing else that's going on through my mind. I'm not looking at all the multiple screens that are in front of me, any distractions. It is 1000% focus on that prospect. The words that are coming out of the mouth, the what they're saying, the way they're saying it, what they might not be saying. It allows me to really, really just drill down, distill things, and I kind of get that mental image of the confessional that Chris and you talk about. So that's probably the mental imagery that's going on, but that's how I try to physically manifest it.
Corey Frank (11:38):
Yeah, I can see that. I'm sure, Shawn, when you close your eyes, you still see and feel and hear the drill instructor from when you were 17 years old. But what other advice would you have for somebody jumping onto a discovery call in this world? What's the one technique you would give to them as we round out this version of the market Dominus, guys,
Shawn Sease (11:58):
Earlier today, I shared another phrase with you that I believe, I think it's universal truth and it's kind of self-evident that the truth is curative, right? The truth is curative. And I mean, if we're going to actually be able to share secrets with each other and have real confessional-type conversations that it has to be genuine. And then you bring up the concept of how to listen, right? How do you listen? And just one technique that I have found, I picked it up along the way from other psychologists people before me again, is to say things back to people, to say back to somebody what they said to you, right? It requires that you listen. And I think another important add-on to that is to say it back to them. If you can have the acumen and experience and so on, to say it back to them in a way that maybe fortifies or even improves what they said.
Shawn Sease (12:41):
And from a discovery and sales perspective, if you want to build, truly build trust, say it back to, even if you disagree, if it doesn't fit with where you need them to go, which would be persuasion and convincing and things like that, which I am just not a fan of, I'd rather have a conversation with somebody, say it back to them and they say, you know what? That's interesting. Or say it back to them in a way that fortifies their argument, especially if you disagree. And then when you hand that baton back to 'em, my experience and what I've learned from trying it is that they'll continue to talk or they'll say, that's right, the gvo thing. Right? Negotiation. That's right. Great. Okay. Next, let's move on to the next thing. So that was a lot in there, authenticity, listening. The truth is curative all outside of the scope of very popular things like persuasion and bending people to your will and being crafty and things like that. It's just simply not my way. I prefer to go that other route that is genuine and authentic, and those are some of the tools I use to get there.
Corey Frank (13:34):
Beautiful, beautiful. I love that. Especially that word you do it effortlessly is certain words that resonates in the language for me. And I have a list of 'em, but the one that you just mentioned, you said fortify. That's a very underutilized word, wouldn't you say? Think Chris and Henry. That's a good word to use earlier. Chris Henry, I think you and I peaked up when Chris used the word longitudinal qualities. Things have longitudinal clients. It's that's a good one. But the last question, lightning quick here, Henry. And I know you've been very gracious with your time, but I'm curious, do you screenplay and script out your discovery calls? Do you have the first X amount of questions? Do you have a goal in mind? You've done this so many times, the hundreds of millions of dollars in worth of properties and assets that you've sold and helped a broker through. But for your discovery calls in this new era over the last few years or so, do you screenplay them or script them out, or how do you structure them to make sure that they're replicable?
Henry Wojdyla (14:32):
I do have the euphemistic playbook I talk about, which is literal. I've got the copyright here in my desk in front of me. The discovery call is structured and scripted and thought through. I will tell you I'm using it less and less, and it's partly for the reasons of the topics that we're discussing here. Some of it's perhaps just having gotten the reps now so many times that some of it's just getting ingrained. But I'm finding that if I'm truly discovering and truly letting the prospect, more importantly, it becomes less and less reliant upon scripts. There's still a basic framework in place. Obviously, you have to have a certain objective, and we have a little bit of benefit perhaps because we're in a very narrow niche. It's very well defined. We know who we're speaking with. There's not really much in the way of qualification that needs to go on.
Henry Wojdyla (15:16):
They're definitionally qualified if they're in our tam. So that's a separate topic. So there's certain freight that doesn't need to be carried in our particular discovery context that might be in others. So with all those caveats in place, I'm finding that I am moving further away from a kind of regimented discovery call. If I had to guess, just take the long view here, I'm going to probably cycle back. But when I get back to the more structured approach, it'll be a re-engineered, reconstituted approach that's going to be much more heavily reliant upon tonality and sub-concepts we've been discussing here.
Corey Frank (15:48):
I get it. I am more of an advocate myself, Chris, and I'll give you the last word as we round up this episode on screenplay Out, every pause and in the Discovery, the Cohen Brothers from Big Lebowski. Every “dude” was screenplay, was scripted, was written in there on purpose. David Fincher from, I think, Fight Club. Every nuance is written in there. And there are certain directors that are just adamant that what they write, they want the actor a pause, an “er” alike to be in there. And I find that helps replicate because we have a larger team, Henry, obviously with your team there as a contributor with your practice. But we're trying to scale it up, and I'm trying to look for the factors that would diminish the opportunity in that discovery call. And so every nuance or word matters, but Chris, give the last word to you on this episode of discovery and tonality in the world of discovery calls.
Chris Beall (16:50):
Well, I love the point you just made. I mean, we practice as professionals at anything so that we can improvise based on what's happening without the practice. We have no foundation for improvising, without being willing to improvise. We can't adapt to reality. So reality, that's where the truth, the truth is out there somewhere and everybody has a plan, as they say, until X, Y, or Z happens. But you better practice your plan, so to speak, so that your speech can be ballistic, so to speak, right? It's like you can't throw a ball or you can't do anything that's athletic, a little tiny piece at a time. You've got to get to the point where you can do it smoothly. And then having learned that you can do it in reality, where there's going to be things that interrupt the smoothness, you can riff safely
Corey Frank (17:41):
For sure, or right. When in doubt, just let it aerate. Just let it breathe.
Henry Wojdyla (17:46):
Let it simmer. Let it simmer.
Corey Frank (17:48):
That's beautiful. Well, excellent. Well, thank you gentlemen. Thank you, Henry, for jumping on this episode of Market Thomas. Guys and Shawn, thank you for having, it was a pleasure, the professor, professor of Prospecting, stop on by the studio.
Henry Wojdyla (18:03):
I'm glad we could. So it's good to see everybody, Shawn and Snake to make your acquaintance been a fan of yours on LinkedIn for a while, so it's nice to thank you very much. Yeah, absolutely.
Corey Frank (18:12):
That's beautiful,
Chris Beall (18:12):
Guys. That was really cool. I love it
Corey Frank (18:16):
So far. Chris Beal from Connected Cell. This is Corey Frank. Until next time.
Tuesday Nov 14, 2023
Tuesday Nov 14, 2023
Alex McNaughten continues his visit with Chris to share psychological insights that challenge traditional sales training. As an AI entrepreneur, Alex emphasizes confidence should be the priority when onboarding salespeople, not technique. He advocates first building enough confidence just to "pick up the phone” and draws parallels between sales and coaching - both guide people through "the emotional journey to consider something new." Alex tells his story about overcoming fear in sales and boxing, noting most training overlooks the emotional side. He concludes that "so much sales training, particularly cold calling, is wrong or missing" these emotional components.
Alex’s perspective as an AI builder brings a unique view on honing the emotional skills crucial for sales success. He advocates pushing sales leaders to transform training to address confidence and psychology first. Join them for this episode, “Confidence Beats Technique in Sales Training.”
Links from this episode:
Grw.aiBranch49ConnectAndSell
Alex McNaughten on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedIn
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Nov 08, 2023
Wednesday Nov 08, 2023
The guys are tackling the big question on every sales manager's mind: Could AI replace me? With wisdom and reassurance, Corey and Chris explore the power of Taylor, an AI sales coach created by grw.ai CEO Alex McNaughten. Taylor provides a judgment-free space for reps to vent frustrations and surface red flags managers miss. As Chris explains, Taylor's conversational skills elicit "confessions" from reps. And for managers worried an AI could do their job better, Alex gently says: "The goal here is to make leaders better...not replace them." So breathe easy sales managers, and get ready to be 10-50X more effective. With the power of AI augmentation Sales Managers will be unstoppable. Join us for this episode, AI Coaching Conversations Elicit Unfiltered Rep Feedback.
About Our Guest:
Alex McNaughten - CEO/Founder - Grw.ai
With a background in B2B sales for both Kiwi startups and US tech giants, Alex is passionate about increasing the level of professionalism & performance in B2B selling globally. Prior to Apprento, through his advisory firm, he trained hundreds of founders, executives and sales professionals and worked across over 130+ ANZ businesses from pre-revenue startups like SafeStack Academy, to growth companies like Rocos to large multinationals like Vodafone, helping them to reduce their sales costs, speed sales cycles, maximize win rates, build out teams, expand into new markets and ultimately generate $10s of millions in new revenues.
Links from this episode:
Grw.aiBranch49ConnectAndSell
Alex McNaughten on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedIn
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
Episode 200 of the Market Dominance Guys features Corey, Chris, and special guest Jim Graf. They explore key trends shaping modern prospecting – from the diminishing returns of broad email campaigns to the rise of personalized, longitudinal selling. Jim explains how the old concept of BANT (budget, authority, need, timeframe) fails to capture the fluidity of today's buying journeys. Rather than chasing "leads," they advocate nurturing long-term demand through authentic relationship building.The conversation culminates in examining the overlooked value of seasoned SDRs. Chris shares examples of 60+ year-old SDRs wildly outperforming their younger peers, dispelling misconceptions that this function is merely developmental. With their seasoning, polish, and focus, many late-career reps embody the consummate skills needed to excel. Jim and Chris emphasize how this critical frontline role requires a professional, not progressive, mindset.In an era of noisy outreach, the guys explore timeless ways to cut through the clutter – with patience, personalization, and wisdom accrued over decades. Listen to this episode, "Authentic Demand: Moving Past Impersonal Lead Gen."
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedInJim Graf on LinkedIn
KazzcadeBranch49ConnectAndSell
Full episode transcript below:
Tuesday Sep 12, 2023
Tuesday Sep 12, 2023
Corey Frank continues his interview with Susan Finch as they talk about perfecting your craft and the importance of a supportive and evaluative community in the journey. This leads to an insightful discussion that draws parallels between renowned comedians and training sales professionals. Corey uses the example of comedians like Jim Gaffigan, Chris Rock, and Jerry Seinfeld testing new material in heartland towns to underscore the significance of knowing your audience and how practicing your craft in smaller venues can sometimes offer more genuine feedback than large, more famous platforms.
Listen in as Corey recounts the story of hotdog-eating champion Kobayashi, drawing lessons on questioning the conventional and pushing the boundaries of what's possible. They emphasize the power of not just aiming for more but seeking ways to make the process more efficient. Join them if you're keen on exploring the intricacies of the sales profession, the art of feedback, and the significance of pushing boundaries in this episode, “Making Seinfeld Laugh: The Sales Professional’s Aim.”
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Sep 06, 2023
Wednesday Sep 06, 2023
Corey Frank welcome Susan Finch to talk about humility, sales training, and sushi. If you've ever wondered how to turn water into wine without being at a wedding in Cana. Today's discussion is all about nurturing the greenhorns and newbies by diving into how to nurture the budding talent fresh from school or those having a "Is this my life?" moment. Corey expounds on why humility isn’t just for monks in monasteries but crucial in the sales world too. Drawing unexpected life lessons from the likes of the book 'The Alchemist' to 'Giro Dreams of Sushi' - yes, a sushi documentary, because why not? - this episode promises a roller coaster ride through the heart of sales strategies. Listen to the first half of this conversation, "Humility's on the Menu: Serving Sales Success Sashimi-style!"
Full episode transcript below:
Tuesday Jun 27, 2023
Tuesday Jun 27, 2023
Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Dr. Mindy Weinstein, as they delve deep into the psychology behind scarcity and its profound impact on consumer behavior. You'll uncover invaluable insights on how scarcity appeals to different generations, especially the younger demographic, and how you can leverage this powerful phenomenon to drive sales success. Drawing from their wealth of experience, Corey and Chris share practical strategies on positioning salespeople as indispensable resources in a scarce market, fostering authentic connections, and building trust through genuine expertise. By the end of this episode, you'll be equipped with actionable tips and powerful communication techniques to elevate your sales game and unleash your full potential. Don't miss out on this opportunity to transform your sales approach—tune in now and unlock the untapped potential of scarcity! Join us for this episode, "Using Scarcity Tactics in Sales: GenX vs. GenZ Psychology."
Links from this episode:
Dr. Mindy Weinstein on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49ConnectAndSell
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Jun 21, 2023
Wednesday Jun 21, 2023
In this episode Chris and Corey are joined by the brilliant Dr. Mindy Weinstein, marketing expert and author of the bestselling book, "The Power of Scarcity." If you want to boost your sales game, this episode is a must-listen. Dr. Weinstein breaks down the secrets behind scarcity and its four types: time-related, demand-related, supply-related, and limited edition scarcity. Learn how to tap into the psychology of scarcity and motivate your customers to take action. Together, they explore the dynamics of scarcity in business and the impact it has on sales and marketing strategies. They also emphasize the importance of trust and credibility. Don't be that professional who abuses scarcity—build genuine relationships first! Join the Market Dominance Guys for a an insightful exploration of the power of scarcity in sales, in "Cracking the Code: Scarcity Strategies for Sales Success."
About Dr. Mindy Weinstein
Marketing is her passion. Over the last several years, she has trained 15,000+ people how to effectively approach marketing and sales in today's climate. Through webinars, workshops and conferences, her goal is to educate the business world one person at a time. As part of this goal, she has been researching, teaching and consulting about marketing psychology, with a special focus on the power of scarcity. In fact, that’s the name of her bestselling book, The Power of Scarcity: Leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions (McGraw Hill 2022).
Links from this episode:
Dr. Mindy Weinstein on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49ConnectAndSell
Full episode transcript below:
Tuesday Jun 13, 2023
Tuesday Jun 13, 2023
Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Ben Sternsmith of Sybill AI . This episode covers how AI is revolutionizing the sales process, making it more precise and empowering for sales professionals.
Discover how AI analyzes tonality and body language, equipping salespeople with unparalleled accuracy in assessing deal progress. They discuss the importance of building trust with clients and how AI can support but never replace the human touch in establishing meaningful connections.
They also explore the resurgence of cold calling as a powerful strategy in the digital age and introduce Dealy. This innovative AI-driven solution enhances CRM systems by analyzing customer interactions and providing valuable insights.
Join us for this insightful episode that explores the synergy between sales and AI, offering practical tips and inspiring ideas for sales professionals.
Links from this episode:
Ben Sternsmith on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedInSybill AIBranch 49ConnectAndSell
About Sybill AI
Sybill AI is an AI company that originated as a Stanford project three years ago. The founders, frustrated with the limitations of remote teaching, developed a behavioral AI engine over Zoom. This innovative tool records calls and analyzes body language to determine engagement levels. Leveraging the power of large language models like GPT-4, Sybill AI offers generative AI for salespeople. It automatically generates call summaries, writes AI-powered follow-up emails, and even appends CRM data.
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday May 10, 2023
Wednesday May 10, 2023
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall reviews how artificial intelligence and machine learning will impact the future of sales. Beall shares his thoughts on how decision support using AI can make it easier and faster to figure out what to do. He gives an example of a prospective customer who wanted to talk to CEOs of companies using the entrepreneurial operating system popularized in the book "Traction." He was able to use ChatGPT to find the names of CEOs running companies that were probably following EOS. In just a few minutes, he had a list of CEOs, company names, and phone numbers. Chris believes that AI and machine learning will help sales teams be more efficient at finding the folks they want to talk to. They will be able to understand their sales teams better, which will help sales run better. In addition to AI, he covers inbound and outbound marketing strategies and which one is more effective. Finally, he explores the power of negative conversations in driving pipeline and how they can be more effective than positive conversations. Join us for this episode, “Sales Success in the Age of AI and Emotional Intelligence.”
Here are 12 provocative questions answered in this episode:
How do you think the rise of artificial intelligence and machine learning will impact the future of sales?
What's your take on the debate between inbound and outbound marketing strategies? Which one do you think is more effective?
Can you share a story about a time when you failed at something in your professional life? How did you bounce back from it?
How do you stay motivated and focused when faced with challenges or setbacks?
What's the biggest mistake you see salespeople make, and how can they avoid it?
How do you think technology changes how sales teams work and collaborate?
What's your opinion on the role of emotional intelligence in sales, and how can salespeople develop this skill?
How do you measure the success of your sales team, and what metrics do you use?
In your experience, what are the most effective strategies for building strong relationships with clients and customers?
How do you ensure that your sales messaging resonates with your target audience?
What advice would you give to someone who is just starting a career in sales?
What are the biggest challenges facing sales leaders today, and how can they overcome them?
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Mar 29, 2023
Wednesday Mar 29, 2023
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys podcast, Chris, Corey and Helen Fanucci discuss the evolution of the internet, from its early days as a way for messages to move across networks to the democratization of global information through the browser and search engines. They also explore the capabilities of ChatGPT, including its ability to generate email responses and interact with customers using personalized prompts. They highlight the potential of ChatGPT to save time and improve the quality of communication for sales professionals. Join us for this idea-filled episode, "How ChatGPT Can Improve Sales Enablement."
Four ideas on how sales professionals can benefit from using ChatGPT for follow-up:
Personalized Follow-Up: ChatGPT can help sales professionals create personalized follow-up messages for each customer based on their preferences, interests, and past interactions with the sales team. ChatGPT can analyze the customer's conversation history and provide personalized responses that feel like a human wrote them.
Lead Nurturing: ChatGPT can help sales professionals nurture leads by sending automated follow-up messages to potential customers at regular intervals. These messages can be customized to meet the specific needs of each customer, making it easier to keep them engaged with the sales process.
Schedule Meetings: ChatGPT can help sales professionals schedule meetings with potential customers by automating the process of finding a mutually convenient time to meet. This can save the sales team a lot of time and effort by eliminating the need to go back and forth with customers trying to find a suitable time.
Provide Instant Customer Support: ChatGPT can be used to provide instant customer support to customers who have questions or concerns about a product or service. Sales professionals can use ChatGPT to respond to these inquiries in real-time, providing customers with the information they need to make a purchasing decision. This can help increase customer satisfaction and improve the chances of closing a sale.
The Evolution of the Internet and Digital Communications
1960s: The concept of hypertext is introduced by Ted Nelson.
1980: Tim Berners-Lee develops the idea of a "mesh" network of hyperlinked documents and begins working on the WorldWideWeb (WWW) project.
1990: The first web page is created by Tim Berners-Lee. It contains information about the WWW project and how to use a web browser.
1991: The first web browser, called WorldWideWeb, is developed by Tim Berners-Lee. It was a text-only browser and was only available on the NeXTSTEP operating system.
1993: The first graphical web browser, called Mosaic, is released by Marc Andreessen and Eric Bina. It was a huge success and helped to popularize the web.
1994: The first search engine, called WebCrawler, is launched by Brian Pinkerton. It was the first search engine to index entire web pages rather than just titles and headings.
1995: Netscape Navigator is released by Netscape Communications Corporation. It becomes the most popular web browser and sets the standard for web browsing features.
1996: The first version of Internet Explorer is released by Microsoft, marking the beginning of the "browser wars" between Microsoft and Netscape.
1998: Google is founded by Larry Page and Sergey Brin. Their search engine quickly becomes the most popular and sets a new standard for search technology.
2003: Skype is launched, becoming one of the first and most popular VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) services.
2004: Mozilla Firefox is released by the Mozilla Foundation as an open-source alternative to Internet Explorer.
2008: Google releases the first version of the Chrome browser, which quickly becomes popular due to its speed and simplicity.
2009: WhatsApp is launched, providing a new way for people to communicate via instant messaging and voice calls over the internet.
2010: Microsoft releases Internet Explorer 9, which is considered a major improvement over previous versions.
2013: Google's Chrome becomes the most popular web browser, surpassing Internet Explorer for the first time.
2021: The current versions of popular web browsers include Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox, Apple Safari, Microsoft Edge, and Opera. Popular search engines include Google, Bing, Yahoo, and DuckDuckGo. VOIP services like Skype, Zoom, and Teams have become critical tools for remote communication in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. The Worldwide Web continues to evolve and expand, with new technologies and innovations being introduced regularly.
2022: ChatGPT from OpenAI.com takes the world by storm and changes how we write and communicate forever.
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Mar 22, 2023
Wednesday Mar 22, 2023
Welcome to another episode of Market Dominance Guys! In this third installment of our Road Trip visit series, we join Helen Fanucci and the team at Branch 49 as they discuss trust-building, gratitude, and top-of-the-funnel strategies.
Helen Fanucci shares her experiences with cold calls while using ConnectAndSell, adjusting her approach to engage prospects effectively. Her customized calls-to-action cater to each prospect's unique needs, leading to successful completions even when the prospect isn't the right person or ready for a meeting.
The experts also explore the value of cold calls in generating website traffic, comparing it to targeted Google ads. The conversation emphasizes the power of trust in maintaining lasting relationships, highlighting that trust endures indefinitely, provided it's not undermined by sales pressure. Join them for this episode, "Boosting Website Traffic with Cold Calls."
Links from this episode:
Branch 49 Sean Snyder on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Microsoft Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Helen's book, Love Your Team ConnectAndSell Chris Beall on LinkedIn Chris and Corey's book, Market Dominance: A Conversation with ChatGPT
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Feb 08, 2023
Wednesday Feb 08, 2023
Welcome to the continuation of a conversation with Hitesh Shah, CTO and CPO of ConnectAndSell. This episode delves into the world of sales and coaching for sales managers. Hitesh shares his experience and insights on coaching by the numbers and how to effectively manage and coach a sales team.
Corey and Chris share their thoughts on how to analyze sales data and determine the strengths and weaknesses of individual sales reps. They stress the importance of getting granular with data and looking at it with a critical eye. By understanding the patterns and details of sales interactions, sales managers can take the necessary steps to help their reps improve and drive better results.
Chris also offers his advice for new sales managers on how to stay up-to-date with fast-moving sales trends and how to effectively manage a sales team in a fast-paced environment. He suggests starting the day by looking at sales data and focusing on the critical details of sales interactions.
So whether you're a seasoned sales manager or just starting out, join us for this exciting episode as Chris, Corey and Hitesh help you take your sales management, training, and sales skills to the next level in this episode, "Get Granular to Boost Your Sales Performance".
If you missed the first half to this interview, you can listen here:
The Power of Childlike Curiosity in the Digital World of Sales
Full episode transcript below:
Wednesday Jan 18, 2023
Wednesday Jan 18, 2023
Revealing the scarcest commodity in corporate business, especially in America today, first requires an understanding of how we got there. Today Barry Trailer, Co-founder of Sales Mastery, joins Chris and Corey. He reviews the four levels of process implementation: the percentage of revenue, the target revenue plan attained, the percentage of reps meeting or beating quota, the outcome of forecast deals, and rep turnover. These are real numbers. But higher levels of relationship and higher levels of process implementation lead to higher levels of performance. And the numbers are just the numbers They continued talking about the turnover. There's a huge contributory factor to the failure to implement significant change on the part of most sales organizations other than the change that a new leader brings in.
What is common is that the new lion, so to speak, the new CRO, the new VP of Sales, comes in and kills the cubs. They attempt to prove that whatever was being done before must not be done anymore. Because I've come in with my new way of doing things and territory must be marked, I was brought in to do something in a new way, and away we go. When the performance isn't there, the CRO or the CSO takes the bullet that the CEO doesn't want to take. But the only reason is that there's been this unholy alliance or this unspoken agreement that as long as we make the numbers, you'll stay out of my sandbox. Listen to this episode to see where your company falls in place in, “The Scarcest Commodity in Corporate Business Today.”
Full episode transcript below:
Tuesday Oct 25, 2022
Tuesday Oct 25, 2022
What changes should you make when you’re selling in an economic-downturn period? Today’s podcast guest, Jeb Blount, is CEO of Sales Gravy and a successful author and podcaster. With 15 books to his name, including his latest, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times, it’s obvious that Jeb knows what he’s talking about when discussing sales techniques during these troubled times. His suggestion? You’ve got to pay close attention to patterns, as well as the signals you’re getting from prospects and customers. In this first of two interviews with our Market Dominance Guys’ hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, Jeb shares his advice about selling a price increase to customers, and about honing and re-honing your message as fears about the current economy’s impact are revealed in your prospects’ objections. Jeb’s also a firm believer in selling alongside his sales team and listening to his reps’ calls to provide just-in-time coaching. Get ready to take notes as this master of selling practices lets you in on what works and what doesn’t in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “How to Dominate Your Market in a Crisis.”
About Our Guest
Jeb Blount is CEO at Sales Gravy, Inc., which is a global leader in sales acceleration and customer experience enablement solutions. He is the author of 15 sales-related books, including his most recent release, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times. Jeb is also the host of the Sales Gravy Podcast, the world’s most downloaded sales podcast.
Wednesday Oct 05, 2022
Wednesday Oct 05, 2022
Retaining your top talent and delivering results is a challenge for all sales leaders when your top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step.
The hybrid work revolution has made sales management the most pivotal role in the innovation economy—and simultaneously the most challenging. Our guest today is Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft, with 25 years managing hybrid teams and has an in-depth understanding of the problems facing sales managers today. Our Market Dominance Guys’ host, Chris Beall, conducts this second interview in his two-part conversation with Helen about her new book, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World. In this podcast and in Helen’s book are details on not only what sales managers must be doing to thrive, but how to do them. It’s definitely a quintessential guide — with all the steps you need to know. But it’s even more than that as the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys episode states, it’s “A Blueprint for Success.”
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft is the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World, available November 1, 2022.
Full episode transcript below:
(00:21):
Retaining your top talent and delivering results is a challenge for all sales leaders, when your top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step. The hybrid work revolution has made sales management the most pivotal role in today's innovation economy, and simultaneously the most challenging. Our guest today is Helen Fanucci, transformational sales leader at Microsoft, and has 25 years managing hybrid teams and an in-depth understanding of the problems facing sales managers today. Our Market Dominance Guys host, Chris Beall, conducts this second interview in his two-part conversation with Helen about her new book, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World. In this podcast and in Helen's book are details on not only what sales managers must be doing to thrive, but how to do them. It's definitely a quintessential guide with all the steps you need to know, but it's even more than that. As the title of today's Market Dominance Guys episode states, it's a blueprint for success.
Chris Beall (01:25):
You have a team this big, you're going to have this much time spent on these one-on-ones, this much on these. These are the ones that have a fixed agenda. These are the ones that are event-driven, but they're probably going to flow at about this rate. Here's the blah, blah, blah. It's on and on. I mean, it's like an engineering breakdown. And folks, by the way, when you read this book, what you're going to get is love as both an emotional concept but also as an engineering concept. Love your team is something you do, not something you just feel. It's mostly something you do through these one-on-one conversations. There must have been a time in your career where you were going through the evolution of all this and you have all the pressures of regular sales managers, report this, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, right?
Helen Fanucci (02:13):
Sure. Yeah.
Chris Beall (02:14):
Did you have to go through a transition or were you just like, "No, I'm always going to do it like this. Screw all you people"? Because I think for most people in the audience who want to do this, what they're going to do is they're going to read the book, then they're going to try to apply, say, some of the conversations of connection. I believe they'll probably start there because they're early and they'll notice that they didn't do one to introduce themselves to the team. And you have a great story about somebody quitting because she went to a group and never got engaged with by the audience. But you do have to go through a process of, "Gosh, I got to figure out this time management thing because that's the real constraint." Or is it just like, "I'm Helen Fanucci. I made my way through MIT. I must be able to manage my time"?
Helen Fanucci (02:58):
I had to think about time constraint, for sure. So, I used to do hour-long one-on-ones with my team. This was years ago. And somehow I thought that that's what was needed and maybe at the time that's what was needed. But I do a half-hour, actually 25 minutes now, and this is a new thing since COVID in the last 18 months is going from a half-hour conversation to 25 minutes. Because everybody's back to back and everybody needs at least a five minute break between a 30 minute or 25 minute conversation. So, I do that. Now, the other thing is I'm available on IM. So, one of the things that I talk about actually in the book in the first getting to know your team is how to communicate with me. People IM me or they'll text me, and so I'm also available for drive-by connection points in between our biweekly one-on-one.
(04:01):
So, I do biweekly one-on-ones with direct reports. And so my last team was 12 direct reports. I now have two managers that work for me and then about 30 people in my organization currently. And so I will do quarterly connections or things like that and sometimes more frequently with some of my skip level reports, people who report to the managers that report to me. And then of course, and separate from the one-on-ones, are the formal pipeline reviews. It depends on what is going on. So, it will happen twice a month if there's a hot deal happening and there's a lot of different moving parts or actions needed. It will for sure happen at least once a month. So, there are different requirements for forecasting in different organizations. So, I definitely pay attention to that and do the forecast reviews with my team so that I can be prepared when I need to report out and up to my management.
(05:10):
And one of the things I really emphasize, speaking of forecasting, is delivering three to 5% of the forecast. I don't value diving catches and last-minute deals in a way that maybe traditional sales managers might. Like, "Rah-rah, that is fantastic." Well, what that meant is it's a missed opportunity for us to get additional investments in our business if we didn't forecast that revenue. Because our investments in our business are directly tied to the anticipated and forecasted revenue. So, if we're under-forecasting all the time, we are missing out on a whole bunch of opportunity to actually increase our value to our customers and get more headcount and investments for our team.
Chris Beall (05:58):
I remember reading that in the book and going, "Oh yeah, that's right." As the guy who's on the other side making those investments, if the forecast is sandbagged, it's off, it's short, it's light just to look good, then it's like, "Well, how much are we going to put as a company into achieving that number?" If you take the thought experiment, you tell me you're going to make nothing, what am I going to invest in you? Well, nothing. I got to find somebody else to do the job. I want to switch up a little bit to you experiencing... You didn't just write a book, you actually do it. I've watched you do it now for, I guess, three years. And I've always been kind of surprised.
(06:38):
It's like sales management to me, when I've seen a lot of it, is, "Yeah, I put somebody in a territory, try to get a good rep, put them in a territory, hope they work out, tell them war stories about how great you were back in the day. Fire them if it doesn't work out and they go to club if it does." It's kind of like that's sales management. You have this very systematic step-by-step process or repeatable cycles within the process with these 17 conversations. My guess is that of the 17 conversations, one kind of conversation is the favorite, the one you look forward to it. If it's the first on the calendar in the morning, you get up a little bit earlier and are hyped up for it and ready to go, and you don't want any distractions and away you go.
(07:25):
And then there's always one kind of thing that you know you got to do, but it's not your fave. It's just it's there and you got to make sure you do it and do it well. But it's not the one that you... And I know you. You're going to do both of them. But what is your favorite? The one that really gets you jazzed. You've looked back on it, maybe you want to talk about it over dinner and wine in the evening. And then what's the, you got to do it, it's really important, but I don't love it that much?
Helen Fanucci (07:54):
Okay. So, I'll start with the second first. I don't love performance improvement, performance management conversations. What's so critical to any role, but particularly when your employees are remote, is you set clear performance-based expectations, outcome-based expectations, not activity expectations. And so what that means is obviously there's quota achievement required, but also for my team it is building stronger, deeper relationships with customers. So, I do a whole list of, if you will, hard expectations, hard numbers that are quantifiable, 3x pipelines, things like that, and then soft, like building a stronger relationship with your customer and increasing the executive engagement with a customer and things like that. So, when my team members, if they're falling short of performance expectations, I address that head on, I talk to them, and then they're on a performance improvement plan of some sort. I don't love that at all. So, that's my least favorite.
(09:15):
So, now that we have that out of the way, let me go to my most favorite, and that is account strategy and ideation and sales strategy. And I love talking with my team about that, brainstorming the next action. So, they'll bring to me a situation, it could be a customer situation, maybe a customer executive left and they're trying to figure out how to get in to see somebody else or the replacement, and so we talk about, "Okay, who knows who and how do we navigate and do we need to bring in one of our executives as bait in the bucket to get this executive to come and meet with us?" So, I love account strategy ideation. That's my favorite part. And a lot of it is asking questions to really understand what's going on and what is needed so that I can be helpful.
(10:16):
Because sometimes what's presented to me, it sounds like we need to have a discount or an investment, but as you get into it it could be that there could be a miscommunication with the customer. It could be that there are things that we need to do to make sure we really understand their business sufficiently that we can present the best solution for them. And maybe it gets redirected to a different offering or a different tactic, if you will, to keep the business moving forward, deal at hand moving forward. So, I love the strategy part of it the most.
Chris Beall (11:01):
Sounds like fun for me too. I really think that that part of business is always fun. When you're ideating, you're brainstorming, you're trying to figure it out. And also it's got to be fun when those action plans are put together and they're progressing to have those one-on-ones that determine, "So, how's it going? And are we achieving what we... We took a guess. We did a thing. Now what?" That's got to be fun too.
Helen Fanucci (12:06):
Yeah, it is, for sure. Yep. You bet.
Chris Beall (12:12):
Yeah. So, Love Your Team is directed at an audience of sales managers. It says so right in the subtitle. A Survival Guide for Sales Managers. Now, I suspect that your way of looking at the world and the techniques and that structure of having these important conversations probably is applicable to all management. But you're not going to go crazy and just say that's it. So, let's think of your audience as sales managers for a moment. As you think about that audience and you think back on writing the book, were there any of those conversations you thought, "This ain't the 100 level course, this ain't the 200 level course. This is where your skills are really going to be challenged"? There's a lot on the line. You have a whole section on skills, on conversational skills, which I've never seen before in a book like this, that says, "These are the skills you need to hold these conversations."
(13:03):
So, there's the skills. We're all lacking in different skills and we all have strong in different skills. And then there's the conversations. And we've never talked about this before. I'm just curious. Did you ever get to the point of thinking, "Oh man, this is like 400-level course stuff that somebody is going to try it, but it's going to be hard for them to do it because the skills required are going to be in short supply"? Or did that not ever come up? Maybe it's like, "Yeah, yeah, everybody can do this."
Helen Fanucci (13:35):
Well, it never came up because what I intended to do with this book is reflect on what I think is needed for sales managers to be successful. And I will say, this is B2B enterprise sales. And so that's my world, and so it won't be applicable to everybody. And I'm not trying to convert people who don't want to be converted, but if folks think that they have a challenge retaining talent or they want some new ideas, I'm hopeful that the book is helpful for them. To be honest with you, I probably am not the best observer of myself. So, while these conversations may seem obvious to me and straightforward and I broke them down and intended to make them accessible and straightforward, I really don't know what the audience of sales managers reading the book, I really don't know where the struggle might be. And I'd be super curious to know that and how I could be more helpful. But I'm kind of blind there, to be honest with you. I don't know.
Chris Beall (14:49):
Yeah. It was probably smart to be blind there because it would be easy to overcook some of these sections if you think that they're too difficult or whatever. I found in my reading of the book, and for the audience, just so you know, in its various forms I've probably now read it nine times, maybe 10 times, not always deeply, but this is a confession. Normally I don't read any book twice. I'm a very fast reader. I love to read. I don't read twice. I get something out of Love Your Team every time I read it. And that's on top of a very, very long career. So, I think that there's a lot of depth and subtlety in your description of these conversations.
(15:32):
As I think them through, I think this way of looking at the world and then putting it into action of having these conversations as a means of getting action, a means of getting results, some of which are, I'll call it action results like deals, revenue, et cetera, but some of which are really, we'll call them valuation results, that as companies are worth more now when they have great talent on board. You lose talent and you lose value. You lose your future as a company. You lose the option value of being able to do things with great people that you can't really do with either not great people or while you're trying to find people.
(16:12):
So, I've read it a bunch of times, but I kept coming back to, "Gosh, I wonder whether people are going to be able to do this or not." And I've come to the conclusion they will be able to do it. I think you've broken it down to the point... Give an example out of, say, the first of the conversations of connection. What is an example of a level of detail that you've provided that somebody might think, "Why is she telling me to do this? Of course, I'm going to do that," but in fact you probably suspect without the detail they aren't going to do that or we aren't going to do that?
Helen Fanucci (16:46):
Introducing yourself to your team. I have three PowerPoint slides that I show. I talk about, the first slide is about me, what's my career background, my family situation. And in fact, I did this introduction to new team members this summer, and I put our wedding picture on it because that was current and timely and that was on that slide. And then a little bit about me. And also, what are my favorite things? Like what's my favorite thing to eat or drink? And so my favorite thing to eat is anything somebody else cooks. So, I'm lucky that Chris likes to cook, and every meal that he cooks is my favorite meal. And then what I like to drink and things like that. So, just fun facts or things I like to do, hobbies or skiing or things like that. So, that's the first slide.
(17:44):
The second slide is my leadership approach and philosophy. I list out the things that are on that slide, like culture first and people first, results-oriented, clarity of results and expectations, no surprises, if there's bad news, communicate it early, things like that. And then the last slide is what's next? So, I make it clear that I'm going to set up one-on-ones with each of them and they don't need to come prepared. It's really just to get to know them. And I also talk about how to communicate with me. So, as I mentioned, IM and texting works great. And so that's what I put on the three slides. So, it's really short and sweet. And for my last team of 12 people, I had each of them introduce theirselves briefly and tell me a fun fact of themselves, like where they like to travel or something like that.
(18:49):
My current team of 30, I did not have everyone introduce themselves but I followed up in over a two or three week period. I met with each of them, all 30 of them, even those that report to my managers. I met each of them for 30 minutes, had a one-on-one with each of them. So, that's the level of specificity and detail in why I do it. And it may or may not work for the reader to be that specific, or maybe they haven't reflected on what their leadership approach or style is and what they care about. So, it's an opportunity for them to reflect on that. So, getting back to your last question as you were then talking, I thought about what might be tough for the reader. And I think what might be tough is the orientation to think about their team first, if that's not how they've been doing their role to date.
(19:50):
So, for example, I think about servant leadership. How can I amplify my team's success? And so when my team members are presenting to the deal review board to try to get a discount or investment or resources for their customer, I ask them, "Would it be useful if I take notes in the background so you can stay present in the conversation and your presentation?" And they all take me up on it. So, I will be off camera. I will take notes and including actions, and then I send it to them after the meeting and the call. And I think it might be tempting for sales leaders to be the ones that are doing the presentation in front of the top ranking executive in the company and the finance team and having that visibility.
(20:49):
Many sales leaders want that for themselves. I want to amplify my team and I want to help my team learn and grow. So, I'm in the background. And that might seem weird to some of the folks who are listening to this podcast or reading the book. And so it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I'm authentically telling them how I do it for their consideration.
Chris Beall (21:17):
I love that thing where you take notes, and it's not so you can keep tabs on them or whatever. It's so the person who's reporting to you or reporting to the person reporting to you can focus on what they're doing and their internal presentation, say as the example you gave, and do a great job and be exposed. I really like the fact that... This one, I think everybody should think about. If you really love your team, you're going to help them get positive exposure for what they're doing, not just in the number, but in every day or as life is going on to the senior executives. And it might result in somebody wanting to pluck them out of your team and put them somewhere else. And that's okay. If that's what they want to do, if that's good for them, that's your job to help them and support them in that. I think that is the hardest reorientation for folks probably is, even if it means that that exposure or that help, that support, whatever you're giving them is going to let them go get another job, so to speak, that's still your job.
Helen Fanucci (22:23):
Yeah, for sure. I do have explicit career conversations with team members and my recommendations. That happens at least twice a year. Sometimes if there's a lot going on we'll talk more frequently. But my team that I just referenced, a team of 12 sellers, three of them now have management roles within Microsoft. So, the three of them I was involved in coaching. They shadowed me in some cases. And so I absolutely think it's a win and it's a success. If your team's not learning and growing, they're going to leave. And actually the data supports that as well. It's fundamental to what folks care about is that they learn and grow. And so I support that. And yes, it means I have to backfill them and hopefully they stay at my current company, which is Microsoft. And if for whatever reason they decide that Microsoft isn't serving their career anymore, well okay, that's okay too. But it's really success on their terms, not my terms that I aim to support.
Chris Beall (23:43):
I think that's such a big, big message and a big change between the Love Your Team approach and the standard approach. If we were just to boil it down to the one thing, it's their north star becomes your north star. And it's individual. It's one-on-one. And I think that's a radical big idea that to some people might sound soft or it might sound dangerous, like, "Oh my God." But your view is it's actually the safe route in a sense, right? It may sound different, but you're reliant on them anyway. You're already in the boat with them.
Helen Fanucci (24:17):
Here's the thing is, I need to model the behavior I want to see in them. So, I expect my team to work well across the organization with their peers and building trust and building relationships is foundational for me with my team, but it's also foundational for them with their customers. And so understanding what constitutes success for customers on their terms is critical for us to be able to deliver value and make sure that whatever we're selling actually meets their needs so they get to say so. So, it kind of goes downhill, so to speak, or it's a virtuous cycle where we all win if the customers are successful in getting what they want in return. And so it's, I'm modeling the behavior I expect to see in my sellers as well.
Chris Beall (25:16):
Well, on that note, I guess we've finally come full circle all the way around to what the other 140-something episodes are about, which is having trust-based conversations with customers, which in the Love Your Team system actually happens more easily and more naturally because what's happening on the inside is then happening on the outside. Helen, you and I have run out of time for this podcast. Thank God we haven't run out of time for each other. And on that, I'm going to say, Corey, we miss you. We love you. But Helen and I had a really good time making this one today.
(25:52):
I am so pleased that you could be on today, Helen. Your book again, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World. It's out November 1st. This podcast will drop a little sooner than that. Everybody who's watching this, listening to it, doing whatever you're doing with it, mark it in your calendar November 1st, and if you're really smart, reach out to Helen and see God knows what, LinkedIn or whatever. She might actually do something special for you in the book department. I really don't know, but it's going to be an incredible experience for you. Thank you so much, Helen.
Helen Fanucci (26:28):
Thank you, Chris.
Tuesday Aug 02, 2022
Tuesday Aug 02, 2022
Getting fired from a sales job is never a surprise. If you’re not producing, you already know it. Brad Ferguson, the managing member of Scottsdale Sales Training, has been with Sandler Training for more than 27 years, and today he shares his sales hiring, onboarding, training, and coaching expertise with our podcast host, Corey Frank. Brad believes that before you let someone go from a sales job, you need to determine whether this person can sell, and you need to consider your company’s financial investment in that individual. This includes training, coaching, and certifying, as well as their salary and benefits. Brad cautions our listeners, “Don’t let the good people you have go. Spend the time getting them up to a higher level.” If they are worth keeping, make the effort to diagnose their problems and then provide the needed training, because, as the title of this Market Dominance Guys’ episode reminds us, “A Good Salesperson Is Hard to Replace.”
About Our GuestBrad Ferguson is the CEO of Best Sales Force, Inc., an Arizona-based sales development firm. He is the Senior Sandler Training Franchisee with over 25 years of experience in the Sandler Network.
Tuesday Mar 15, 2022
Tuesday Mar 15, 2022
Are you motivated to help the prospects you’re cold-calling? Jennifer Standish, Founder of Prospecting Works, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, in this third of a three-part conversation to talk about different approaches to this process we call “sales.” Thinking of a sale as a “win,” implies that sales is a contest between you and your prospect — and your prospect is the loser. Does this sound like cause for a happy dance? Jennifer says it makes her crazy to hear salespeople say that they’re “killing” their numbers. Corey and Chris agree that this aggressive attitude could also kill the chance of developing a trusting relationship with a buyer, a relationship that would serve both parties now and in the future. Oh, these three savvy sales folks know what’s what when it comes to making magic happen between a salesperson and a prospect. You’re going to want to take notes while you’re listening to this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Magical Type of Cold Call.”
Catch the previous two episodes in this conversation here:
EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure
EP123: Hire Yourself a Grandma
About Our GuestJennifer Standish is Founder of Prospecting Works, an organization that assists salespeople in overcoming cold-call reluctance. She combines her 25-year cold-calling career with her skills as an intuitive healer, offering a “warm and fuzzy” approach that attracts introverts as well as people who don’t want to be considered salespeople.
Tuesday Mar 08, 2022
Tuesday Mar 08, 2022
Would you hang up on your grandmother? Of course not! Jennifer Standish, Founder of Prospecting Works, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, in this second of a three-part conversation to talk about the perfect voice for cold-calling success. Certain voices cause people to react in a positive way, and it turns out that a female over the age of 60 has the perfect voice to get that positive reaction needed to be a successful cold-caller. Who knew?! Well, researchers like Jennifer did. She has discovered that with a little training, middle-aged women without an identifiable accent are phenomenal appointment-setters. Corey and Chris enthusiastically agree with her that “grandmas are the untapped labor market we need in sales.” If this sounds bizarre to you, tune in to hear how the nuances of voice affect the trust you need to establish in the first critical moments of a cold call. It’s all on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Hire Yourself a Grandma.”
Listen to the first part of this conversation:
EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure
and the next segment after this one:
EP124: The Magical Type of Cold Call
About Our GuestJennifer Standish is Founder of Prospecting Works, an organization that assists salespeople in overcoming cold-call reluctance. She combines her 25-year cold-calling career with her skills as an intuitive healer, offering a “warm and fuzzy” approach that attracts introverts as well as people who don’t want to be considered salespeople.